You're a Bunch of Factors

Now, I am no ettiquite expert, but Phil admits here that the rules do not require a show, but since when has ettiquite dictated that a player should do something not required by the rules?

This also raises another issue, along the lines of one of my pet peves, namely players who call a river bet and immediately flip their cards, giving the bettor the opportunity to muck if beat.
OK, here the bluffer might not want to show his cards (but hey he is admitting he bluffed so is he really giving away that much?), but by mucking he is allowing the caller to also muck. Wouldnt it be worth the information you give away showing your own bluff to ensure the other player shows his cards (esp in this case as he PFR'd and cbet) ?

And really, isnt it Phil Hellmuth with bad ettiquite here? I mean, the other guy has paid to see his cards (yes, also to win the pot, but...) Im pretty sure Hellmuth would be quick to get upset if someone ALWAYS mucked there called river bluffs... Would ANYONE tolerate a player who constantly mucked there picked off bluffs? And if its bad form to always do it, then why is ok to do it once or twice?

AJG wrote:Now, I am no ettiquite expert, but Phil admits here that the rules do not require a show, but since when has ettiquite dictated that a player should do something not required by the rules?

It doesn't, sounds like Phil just wants to see Jean's hand.

What are the rules here if Phil mucks? Jean has to show his hand to claim the pot, yes?

AceLosesKing wrote:What are the rules here if Phil mucks? Jean has to show his hand to claim the pot, yes?

If Phil mucks and Jean is the last live player in the hand, then he wins with needing to show.

AJG wrote:
Now, I am no ettiquite expert, but Phil admits here that the rules do not require a show, but since when has ettiquite dictated that a player should do something not required by the rules?

Etiquitte, whilst not as important as the rules, is still important. I would think that if JRB or any other player wanted to be invited back to play in a regular game - regularly contravining etiquitte would see invitations dry up pretty quick.

What PH did is fine in my book, as he had no hand whatsoever. If he ever did it with a weak hand & then claimed the pot if his weak hand was infact the winner - well I think all bets are off and JRB would have a reason to take the line he did for all future hands he played with PH.

AJG wrote:This also raises another issue, along the lines of one of my pet peves, namely players who call a river bet and immediately flip their cards, giving the bettor the opportunity to muck if beat.

This annoys me too, but it is often just inexperience/excitement.

AJG wrote:And really, isnt it Phil Hellmuth with bad ettiquite here? I mean, the other guy has paid to see his cards (yes, also to win the pot, but...) Im pretty sure Hellmuth would be quick to get upset if someone ALWAYS mucked there called river bluffs... Would ANYONE tolerate a player who constantly mucked there picked off bluffs? And if its bad form to always do it, then why is ok to do it once or twice?

It's more that JRB was questioning his charactor in a way i think - i don't trust that you have nothing and there is a chance that you will say 'take it' then show a winning hand.
JRB should not have been ashamed of his hand - it was fine to raise with, c bet with and call a small value bluff on the end. Showing this hand would not have destroyed any image he had established - it actually established that he can make tough calls in the right situations.

As for 'it happening constantly' i expect it would in that game - as long as it is the same etiquitte for all - i think it is fine (its not that relevent what they actually had.) It's nice to know, but raking the pot & keeping a happy, fun game should be reward enough.

caleb is correct, but i agree with hellmuth on this one, jean robert should have to turn his hand over to win a pot.

having said that, hellmuth is also in the wrong for not turning his hand over as well.

they are both to blame in this instance.


in general though, i agree with AJG, i annoys me when someone gets called and then wont flip their cards over

Haha, I think you guys have missed the whole point of the exercise from Hellmuth's point of view. The fact that what he did would really annoy all of you is exactly why he did it!!! He wants to get everyone thinking "you know what, it's not worth calling this guy if it's gonna end up like that again". And he got what he wanted (even if he had to reach in the muck and turn his cards to get it, which is against the rules), he got to see his opponent's hand.....

That's why he is the one grinning at the end of the clip....

i think there is a similar discussion in last weeks poker road pod cast.

Interestingly there has been a rule brought into the WSOP.

Where by if it is up to you to flip your cards after the river action ( for example some one has just called your bluff on the river) , and instead you deliberatley muck your cards you get an instant orbit penalty.

krunchie wrote:Interestingly there has been a rule brought into the WSOP.

Where by if it is up to you to flip your cards after the river action ( for example some one has just called your bluff on the river) , and instead you deliberatley muck your cards you get an instant orbit penalty.

That's a crap rule IMO, takes the gamesmanship out of poker a little....

JMACK007 wrote:

krunchie wrote:Interestingly there has been a rule brought into the WSOP.

Where by if it is up to you to flip your cards after the river action ( for example some one has just called your bluff on the river) , and instead you deliberatley muck your cards you get an instant orbit penalty.

That's a crap rule IMO, takes the gamesmanship out of poker a little....

I like it.

It is always good to see if the opponent was semi-bluffing/bluffing, what their range is pre (especially to a raise.) etc.

Just because they are sure they lose doesn't mean that it'll be the same in every situation. If you call, you pay to see their cards. Show them damn it!

(Disclaimer: I have been known to muck my bluff when called. I'll continue to do so whenever possible, because of the slight advantages I've just laid out. But I would still be in favour of this rule being implemented in a tournament and would happily follow it.)