AA on K high flop - tough spot

[bennymacca]

garth, we are never getting to the river in this hand, with this stack ever, i dont think

a flat on the flop is half our stack.

if we flat, we have to jam any turn i think, we have about half a pot left.


(trishan, i recommend automatically topping up for a full buyin, not sure what others think about this)

[muzzington]

If you want to play properly you should. That said, I don't do it yet.

[Garth Kay]

I was talking generically before.

I did say in my original response that with the stack sizes the money is all going in on the flop or turn. With the stack sizes in this hand we either ship the flop or turn.

Check calling is a valid possibility here as well, if we all can agree that the chips are going in and our villain is always priced in anywhere in this hand then check calling and not taking the lead in this hand is a viable option.

And check calling the flop and then jamming the turn is just plain silly. I hate that play from novice players. You have two options you check raise the flop or smooth the flop.

Smooth the flop procedure:
1.) Check the turn - after timing down
2.) If opponent bets then check raise all in - again after taking five seconds
3.) If opponent checks behind then you bet the river - this is a snap bet lead.

[bennymacca]

I was talking generically before.

I did say in my original response that with the stack sizes the money is all going in on the flop or turn. With the stack sizes in this hand we either ship the flop or turn.

Check calling is a valid possibility here as well, if we all can agree that the chips are going in and our villain is always priced in anywhere in this hand then check calling and not taking the lead in this hand is a viable option.

And check calling the flop and then jamming the turn is just plain silly. I hate that play from novice players. You have two options you check raise the flop or smooth the flop.

Smooth the flop procedure:
1.) Check the turn - after timing down
2.) If opponent bets then check raise all in - again after taking five seconds
3.) If opponent checks behind then you bet the river - this is a snap bet lead.

check calling the flop is silly here i think. you lose value out of any flush draws.

but as you said, bigger stack sizes, and it could be played differently.

[Garth Kay]

benny the cunt,

There is no check calling the flop. We led the flop, got raised and smoothed the flop.

If you are going to lead on every street every time you have a strong hand then you will never be able to modify your game and advance through the ranks, nor for that matter extract maximum value from strong opponents.

If you were the villain and saw someone raise pre, check call a flop raise from yourself and then immediately check the turn what are you thinking?

Against an aggressive tricky opponent in 1/2 or 2/4 ring games I would actually play AK or AA the way I have described above, because I get maximum value out of this method by playing the player rather than trying to protect my hand. If I know that my opponent is aggressive and overplays marginal hands then I will quite often lead that flop 80% of the time and then check the turn hoping to extract another bet or hopefully induce a spew from opponent.

[bennymacca]

sorry garth, i mean smooth calling the raise, not check calling.

garth, i understand that the bet/shove line might not be optimal at higher levels, but i think that it is at lower levels.

[Garth Kay]

sorry garth, i mean smooth calling the raise, not check calling.

garth, i understand that the bet/shove line might not be optimal at higher levels, but i think that it is at lower levels.

Well actually it can be quite effective at lower level.

Let's get really particular about this hand, if we take a portion of villains range which is 77 - QQ then by shoving that flop we could eliminate the possibility of extracting value from these hands.

Pot after check raise on flop equals $5.60.

If we jam this flop we add a further $4.30 to the pot and it is only $2.80 more to call for villain.

So we are offering villain pot odds of 2.8/9.9 of almost 3.3 to 1. If my maths is right as I am confusing myself trying to do several things at once right now.

Any decent player at this level realises that his pockets are no good here and he is not getting the right odds to call. We have just eliminated a wide portion of his range from the possibility of extracting value.

You also have to consider that with these pot odds, any flush draw is calling no matter what as well as any paired King hand. None of these hands are folding here from a mathematical viewpoint.
Bearing this in mind we can extract maximum value by deffering the lead in this hand to the villain. We check that turn we have more possibility of extracting a future bet from villain especially for his pocket ranges if he is now putting us on the draw, any bet larger than a 1/3rd of the pot prices our villain in no matter what.

[bennymacca]

by not betting though, you will extract more value from lower pocket pairs, but you lose value from flush draws, as they are likely to check behind, and may not fire on later streets.

so i guess it comes down to which part of their range you are targeting. if you think they are more likely to have a flush draw, then betting is better i think.

however with no pocket pair, not betting would be good because villain may try to go for thin value on a later street.


does this sound right?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Targeting part of their range?

Im not sure I understand this. Their range is their range isnt it. So isnt it better to make the optimal play for the entire range?

If your targeting part of their range arnt you just narrowing it down?

CT

[Garth Kay]

Is sound reasoning.

Yes you are correct benny the cunt.

But with no reads and a limp call from UTG what do you really think his hand range is.

I am more likely to believe any paired King or pockets. These hands will take the lead and continue to bet on later streets in almost 80% of cases.

I also wouldn't b honestly suprised that he rolls AA or KK and has either flopped a set or catches runner runner diamond to smash Trishan

Categorically with stack sizes at these limits the only option is to jam the flop, definitely agree that this is the optimum play. With deeper stacks and more information on villain I would probably play this hand differently as outlined in my previous posts.