You're a Bunch of Factors

2/3 NL in Melbourne. Thursday night 1 am. I've grinded for 2 hours to get my inital $200 to around $490. Just playing nice and smooth and picking up pots with having any real hands. Was on a nice soft table. Then....

A table gets broken, 4 stacks of over $800 sit down and the table goes into overdrive. Agressive play, massive pots (comparitively), but incredibly weak winning hands. I was just being patient, waiting for a spot to cash in. I developed a read on most on the table so I know where I stood most of the time.

After 30 mins this hand occurred.

9 seater.

I'm UTG. Look down at [kc kd].
I raise to $21.
UTG + 1 calls. UTG + 2 calls. As does UTG + 3, UTG + 4, cut-off & button. In fact, every single bloody player calls, there are 9 runners to the flop in the end.

Flop: [ks 10c 3h]

SB snap jams for $58. BB folds. Comes to me.

What do you guys think? I'm sooooo far ahead here,. The best possible hand that someone could have against me in QJ, I don't mind them drawing to that. I have 6 to act after me.

Do I put in a small raise to try to build the pot? Or is that too suspicious?
Do I put in a large raise and hope someone has something they will play against me?
Do I flat call and get some more players in, hoping also that someone else will raise for me?

What's the best way to extract a little more here?

This is what I did.

i reckon shoving over the top on the flop might have been the way to go - make it look like you have a hand that you dont want to play a multiway pot with

aces, under sets, 2 pairs and straight draws (possibly) are still probably calling.

you are folding out pretty much all kings and other single pair hands by jamming, but you aren't getting much value out of them anyway.

i probably would have jammed, but its an interesting hand. u post on 2+2? might get a good response on there

I don't post on 2+2. Might have a look.

Could one of the boys please move this to the hand discussino section. I'm still a bit spaced and put in the wrong place.

Flat the flop.

By raising what hands do you think will come along for the ride?
It's a very dry board, so by raising there you have to hope that an opponent has TT or 33, AK or AQ or Ace really for them to come along on the ride.

By raising there you scare off any marginal hands, you flat and price the other marginal hands in. Hope the buttong has KT or TT and decides a re raise is in order. Then it's some hollywood time and a shove over the top.

Your bet's on the turn and river just screamed strength, I would almost contemplate a check on the turn there to see if I can get any fish to fire at the pot to take it down. Otherwise I contemplate an overbet anywhere from 3/4's to 2x the pot. Make it look like you are scared of callers and want to shut it down.

From your description of the table. I smooth cal flop, check turn and then jam river.

The smooth call looks like strong hand, but could be beaten and doesn't want to let it go.
The check on the turn will represent weakness to the other callers and if you give away free cards that's to bad. The river jam is just one of those bets where they have to decide you are bluffing after playing so passively post flop or if you really are that strong.

Caleb Rybalka wrote:2/3 NL in Melbourne. Thursday night 1 am. I've grinded for 2 hours to get my inital $200 to around $490. Just playing nice and smooth and picking up pots with having any real hands. Was on a nice soft table. Then....

A table gets broken, 4 stacks of over $800 sit down and the table goes into overdrive. Agressive play, massive pots (comparitively), but incredibly weak winning hands. I was just being patient, waiting for a spot to cash in. I developed a read on most on the table so I know where I stood most of the time.

What was your read on how they're reacting if you flat/raise/shove? How are you going to get the most value?

Caleb Rybalka wrote:I'm UTG. Look down at [kc kd].
I raise to $21.
UTG + 1 calls. UTG + 2 calls. As does UTG + 3, UTG + 4, cut-off & button. In fact, every single bloody player calls, there are 9 runners to the flop in the end.

Flop: [ks 10c 3h]

SB snap jams for $58. BB folds. Comes to me.

What do you guys think? I'm sooooo far ahead here,. The best possible hand that someone could have against me in QJ, I don't mind them drawing to that. I have 6 to act after me.

Wow, 9 callers. So a $189 pot on the flop, and a jam for $58. I'm putting SB on a lower set here. But anyway.

If you jam that flop the only hand that might call that you're in danger of is QJ, as you mentioned - and thats player dependent. I don't know how the 2/3 game plays, but it seems pretty donk with 9 players calling preflop.

Honestly, if you're just after value flatting seems like the best route. You want to see another raise behind you, then you can reevaluate. Raising here folds too many one pair hands that you obv crush. You could make an argument for raising the flop here, however I like flatting more. Raising this flop and firing the turn screams strength, I definitely like flatting here. I don't like shoving at all.

Also, lead for more on the turn. Thats a $363 pot, you should be firing at least $200, and cramming practically any river.

garth, what would happen if you smooth called flop, and got checked behind on the turn? this means that there is no side pot at all.

so an overbet on the river then looks extremely strong because you aren't picking up any side pot, and you have to show down anyway?

which means there would be no reason to bluff.

what about smooth calling then overbetting turn?

Double hand slap all your chips into the pot on the flop. It will get a call or two.

bennymacca wrote:garth, what would happen if you smooth called flop, and got checked behind on the turn? this means that there is no side pot at all.

so an overbet on the river then looks extremely strong because you aren't picking up any side pot, and you have to show down anyway?

which means there would be no reason to bluff.

what about smooth calling then overbetting turn?

You'll notice that smooth calling and over betting the turn was one of my options.

The object of this hand, and the question, is to extract maximum value. With the limited info Caleb supplied you would have to assume that this is a very loose table with too many players overvaluing their hands, 9 players flat pre to a $21 raise from UTG?

Raising or check raising could only scare off potential marginal hands such as those with mid pairs, top pair weak kicker and draws. With this hand you won't them along for the ride. You have to flat that flop for max value, unless you have a decent read on some of your opponents and know what they will do when faced with a raise.

There are three options on the turn; check = feigned weakness, Over bet = strong pair or AK and you want to shut the pot down now, value town = will more than likely get called but this would imply great strength in your hand. especially on that board.

I think flat calling would be the wrong option. This is why.

Some people have mentioned that they want some kings (KQ, KJ and dare i say it K9) along for the ride, but realistically, these hands are folding (with the exception of maybe KQ) to the jam on the flop here anyway. So the only hands that are coming along for the ride are AA, KT, QJ, TT, 33, AJ and AQ.

There are a few turn and/or river cards that are very scary for us at the moment, especially a 9 or A, but also Q or J. By putting a small raise in on the flop (say to $130) we are folding out the gutshots (AJ and AQ) and limiting it to hands that we always beat no matter what the turn/river (barring quads).

So i think that a small raise is the best option. AA (although no re-raise pre prob discounts this hand, KT, TT, QJ and 33 are all calling here, but it also gives one the opportunity to shove also, trying to isolate the all in. If/when called, i would also check the turn no matter what came, the reason being that MANY players would put me on a draw and snap-shove their stack a lot of the time. If they check behind and the river bricks i would also shove the river to make it look like a missed draw.


In summary, i would raise the flop, check/call the turn and shove (or value bet) the river depending on my read of opponents in the hand. I think this would have worked best, especially on the loose table you describe, as it might get tricky on later streets with 5 players in the hand if a scare card falls.

I both like and ridicule your suggestion that some of those hands with a K in them are folding to a raise.


I like the theory.

I laugh in the face of the reality.