You're a Bunch of Factors

Hey guys,

I've been thinking about this hand all day and how I messed it up. Would love some help!

MTT Online 7th hand in. $2000 chips, blinds are $10-20.

I'm in the big blind with JJ.
4x limpers including SB.
I raise to 5xBB and get 3 calls. The pot size is now $420.

Flop: 6(d) 2(c) 7(h) rainbow.

Checked to me, I raise $220 and everyone calls. Pot size is now $1300.

Turn: 8(d)

Checked to me, I raise $400. Guy on my left re-raises to $1200. The dealer and SB both fold. I re-raise all in for $1600. He calls.

River: 9(c)

I throw down my JJ, he puts down 8(c) 7(c) and I'm out.


My first reaction was: how could he call my 5xBB pre-flop from only mid position with 87? Was he mixing it up or being stupid? Perhaos 5xBB wasn't a big enough bet?

At the flop, I was thinking nobody could have a flush draw, a straight draw was very unlikely because a caller would have had higher connectors than what was on the board. I thought my only real danger was if someone had called me with pocket 6, 7, or 2 and I was facing down trips. Then I bet $220 of a $420 pot. I thought this was a good amount - I couldn't see any real danger on the board, if anything I underbet. Of course I got a little worried when everyone called, and I couldn't figure out what they could have had.

At the turn, obviously, I made at least 3 mistakes:

First of all, I raised again to $400 despite having 3 callers on my back. My thought process was that a smaller bet of a little under 1/3 the pot would not be too much money out of my stack to commit me!

Then I got re-raised to $1200, my first thought and only thought was that the guy was full of it and was trying to scare me off. I stupidly didn't consider that If I re-raised him, he was now committed and would not fold.

I think the other mistake I made was to commit so much to one hand so early in an MTT. I should have set myself up for the long haul rather than winning (or losing) that hand.



Does anyone else have some thoughts about this hand? What would you have done differently? Do you agree with my self-critique?

Thanks.

at the heart of it, you overvalued 1 pair when there were two very believable hands that had you beat: Straight, and several combination of "two pair" hands.

What did you put everyone on when they called your flop bet? draws? if so, were some of them not complete on the turn?

my preflop raise would have been ~7 x bb. No way I wanna play JJ against that many players OOP.

Bigger flop bet as well. Shove turn.

Still would have lost as played but the bigger bets pre and on the flop might have taken down the pot earlier.

My opinion.

CT

Hi Joel,

I will evaluate each street.

Pre Flop - Your raise is ok, not great but ok. Let's break down the math.
Blinds are 10/20, you raise to 100 with 4 callers already the pot is now 180. Therefore the first player to act after you is facing a call of 80 to win a pot of 180, you are giving the first caller 2.25 to 1. That's not bad but that's coin flip odds and at this level it's only 5% of your opponents stack or therabouts. Now if the first limper calls the second player in position is facing a call of 80 for a pot worth 280 he is now getting 3.5 to 1. These are almost good odds for Any two cards in a multi way scenario. If he calls then everyone else behind him are priced in to call.

I would have raised to almost 160 - 220 to really chase out some of the limpers. And perhaps cut your opponents down to 1 or 2. You also have to consider that you are out of position in this hand and will need to act first for the remainder of streets facing any callers.

Flop Although this isn't an entirely wet board your hand is now just one pair and you really don't want to price in to many callers. You need to bet a anywhere from 3/4ths to full pot on this board. Again with you bet sizing as soon as you get one call you are pricing in all other hands, which isn't a bad thing if you want max value, but with JJ you will get overcards, connectors and a huge range of hands to chase everything down.

Turn Weak bet that screams come over the top of me. Again bet more on this turn card or even better for pot control reduce it to check call. Check OOP and then call down any bets. If you bet here and are re raised you are beaten 90% of the time. To control the pot better it is ideal to lead with a check here. You have now committed almost 50% of your stack and once someone shoves you are priced in to call. Leading with a weak bet here you have left yourself in a sticky situation.

There is noway I am re raising the turn though. I would almost fold the turn here after been raised. A re raise gains no value, you are only going to get called by a weaker hand 20% of the time, especially after a raise. This board has now become wet with flush and straight draws. Against any draw you are favourite but not many draws are raising you here.

I thought your raise pre was ok, but at 10/20 blinds, people see it as "only 100 chips" rather than 5x the blind. With so many limpers i would think about making this bigger. You only want to play your hand against one of two other at the most. Anything up to 200 would be ok here.

I think both your flop and turn bets are too small for the size of the pot. half to two thirds of the pot should be the minimum here i think. But hey you still got your money in good, but maybe with a bit larger bet on the preflop or on the flop, you may not have seen a river card.


Edit: damn it garth beat me to it, i hope i gave similar feedback..

Solid advice there. I have much to learn. Thanks guys.

But would you have called pre-flop with 8,7suited? I'm still narky about that

maccatak11 wrote:I think both your flop and turn bets are too small for the size of the pot. half to two thirds of the pot should be the minimum here i think. But hey you still got your money in good, but maybe with a bit larger bet on the preflop or on the flop, you may not have seen a river card.


Edit: damn it garth beat me to it, i hope i gave similar feedback..

Sorry mate, but money didn't go in good. Money went in on turn JJ vs two pair.

maccatak11 wrote: But hey you still got your money in good, but maybe with a bit larger bet on the preflop or on the flop, you may not have seen a river card..

No, his money went in on the turn, when he was already done (villan had 78 for top two, river 9)

Joel3305 wrote:Solid advice there. I have much to learn. Thanks guys.

But would you have called pre-flop with 8,7suited? I'm still narky about that

Ah hell yes!

No way I am folding that hand in position with pot odds of 6.5 - 1

Hell, I'm calling 87s if I'm first to act