Chip Leader V Shorter Stack

[pundies]

As per the other thread (att benny the cunt).........happy discuss but of course I am not going to go into all of my personal strategies & moves, that would be silly

Until a certain stage of a tournament (ITM in bigger fields, FT in smaller fields) being chip leader is not always my ultimate. I like to sit in the top 20%. In a large tournament (400+ runners) the most important figure to me is average chip stack. At Casino tournaments I watch this figure on the big screen like a hawk!!

Sure if I am a massive chip leader, fantastic. But I feel in the past I have played some of my best poker, playing from behind and some of my worst poker, playing from in front.

Roll on with why you think this way of thinking is flawed & a leak in my game, I am all ears & happy to discuss.

[AJG]

If thats your past results, then its not flawed theory, but maybe flawed how you play as the big stack....

...
But I feel in the past I have played some of my best poker, playing from behind and some of my worst poker, playing from in front.
...

You certainly aren't alone here...

Personally I found earlier in my tournament playing days, that I just spewed too many chips if I was the big stack, calling with bad pot-odds or just too loosely (esp from EP, or raises from LP with easily dominated hands) preflop... also not considering implied odds preflop, esp when there are shorties in the pot. [and it can still be a problem, i have no illusions about that!]
I also thought a river shove would get them to fold, or a turn raise, preflop 3bet whatever...
Using terminology I didnt know then, I just plain thought I had more fold/fear equity than I really did... particularly fear equity.
And from talking to other players, I am not alone in this phenomenon...

You just can't do this when you are shorter stacked. (well you can, but find yourself on the rail pretty quickly!)
If this happens as the big stack, we tend to tighten up before we go completely busto

Using your big stack as a weapon is an art-form just as accumulating chips early is... And there are differing views on how this should be done to...

What Im trying to say, is that it just may be a matter of how you adjust your play based on your stack size (when its big)? maybe DONT change so much when you are (one of) the big stack(s)???
Only as you mentioned often you play worse as the big(ger) stack...
Just a thought, i could be way off base...

I dont think i am saying anything you dont already know, but sometimes it still helps to have things reminded to us...

Being chip leader should never be our primary goal (until very late), rather making good, +EV decisions. imho anyway...

[thelaw88]

If thats your past results, then its not flawed theory, but maybe flawed how you play as the big stack....

...
But I feel in the past I have played some of my best poker, playing from behind and some of my worst poker, playing from in front.
...

You certainly aren't alone here...

Personally I found earlier in my tournament playing days, that I just spewed too many chips if I was the big stack, calling with bad pot-odds or just too loosely (esp from EP, or raises from LP with easily dominated hands) preflop... also not considering implied odds preflop, esp when there are shorties in the pot. [and it can still be a problem, i have no illusions about that!]
I also thought a river shove would get them to fold, or a turn raise, preflop 3bet whatever...
Using terminology I didnt know then, I just plain thought I had more fold/fear equity than I really did... particularly fear equity.
And from talking to other players, I am not alone in this phenomenon...

You just can't do this when you are shorter stacked. (well you can, but find yourself on the rail pretty quickly!)
If this happens as the big stack, we tend to tighten up before we go completely busto

Using your big stack as a weapon is an art-form just as accumulating chips early is... And there are differing views on how this should be done to...

What Im trying to say, is that it just may be a matter of how you adjust your play based on your stack size (when its big)? maybe DONT change so much when you are (one of) the big stack(s)???
Only as you mentioned often you play worse as the big(ger) stack...
Just a thought, i could be way off base...

I dont think i am saying anything you dont already know, but sometimes it still helps to have things reminded to us...

Being chip leader should never be our primary goal (until very late), rather making good, +EV decisions. imho anyway...

Except in turbo tourneys - being chip leader from the beginning is great - puts you in a position to call those shorter stacks without risking your whole stack

[Scotty]

Can you expand on why you play worse poker when CL or near enough?

[gmatical]

I expect that playing loosely due to the large stack is precisely the reason why people would prefer to have a mid sized stack.

With an average stack players are almost FORCED to play optimally. Paying extra attention to your competitors with similar stacks (vying for similar pay outs and pay out jumps) Having a short stack leads to what I call "one decision poker" shove or fold. Big stack leads to increased steal attempts, that can backfire - spew or bleed chips.

Increased calling & betting a wider (non-optimal) range can creep in too with a big stack!

So, it is infact just mental - and should be easily corrected. Try and make the same decision regardless of stack size (except really short).

If you feel you PLAY better with a medium stack - you should be able to PLAY the SAME regardless of stack size.

[bennymacca]

yep - it has to be a mental thing

personally, i get tilted if i have a medium stack - everyone knows those times when every time you raise you have to fold on the flop, then you grind for a while, then the same thing happens - you just cant' get anything going.

i LOVE having the biggest stack on the table by a fair bit, it means you can put a lot of pressure on your opponents, especially with re-stealing because if they have 15/20bb and you have 80+, you can effectively put them to a decision for all their every time they want to put their chips in the pot.

against tight passive players, this means i can run over the table pretty effectively.


if i have a short stack, i am usually determined to get it back.

mid stack, when i can't get anything going is the worst.

[rcon]

yep - it has to be a mental thing

personally, i get tilted if i have a medium stack - everyone knows those times when every time you raise you have to fold on the flop, then you grind for a while, then the same thing happens - you just cant' get anything going.

i LOVE having the biggest stack on the table by a fair bit, it means you can put a lot of pressure on your opponents, especially with re-stealing because if they have 15/20bb and you have 80+, you can effectively put them to a decision for all their every time they want to put their chips in the pot.

against tight passive players, this means i can run over the table pretty effectively.


if i have a short stack, i am usually determined to get it back.

mid stack, when i can't get anything going is the worst.

I too aim for this, however I think I understand where OP is coming from. When getting BS'ed I used to just "see" flops for the hell of it and if its your day, well this goes well. More realistically, you bleed chips and get frustrated that things aren't going your way so you start playing -EV.

As benny the cunt says, you should always be looking to apply pressure when you've a BS and that means raising, not calling. Put them on a range and if you feel they'll fold to a RR, push

[gmatical]

, especially with re-stealing because if they have 15/20bb and you have 80+, you can effectively put them to a decision for all their every time they want to put their chips in the pot.

This has a bad flip side too when you do it too often or they shove.

For example Mr BB (20 bb's) rasies from EP
As a chip leader (80bb's) you attempt a re-steal with J 10 suited - make it 10 bb's to go
They shove -we are faced with a tough(ish) decision - respect them and bleed down to 70bb or call (and likely lose) and be down to 60bb's - get lucky and bust them.

So the chip lead has a double edge about it.

I take my own advice lately and try and play it the same regardless of stack -except for times when blinds have tiny stacks and it is unopened etc.. but i still require a reason to be in the pot in the first place (a decent or potentially decent starting hand) - being rich is not always enough.

This is a strange but interesting thread.

[bennymacca]

, especially with re-stealing because if they have 15/20bb and you have 80+, you can effectively put them to a decision for all their every time they want to put their chips in the pot.

This has a bad flip side too when you do it too often or they shove.

For example Mr BB (20 bb's) rasies from EP
As a chip leader (80bb's) you attempt a re-steal with J 10 suited - make it 10 bb's to go
They shove -we are faced with a tough(ish) decision - respect them and bleed down to 70bb or call (and likely lose) and be down to 60bb's - get lucky and bust them.

So the chip lead has a double edge about it.

I take my own advice lately and try and play it the same regardless of stack -except for times when blinds have tiny stacks and it is unopened etc.. but i still require a reason to be in the pot in the first place (a decent or potentially decent starting hand) - being rich is not always enough.

This is a strange but interesting thread.

it depends on what sort of equity you have, usually you get odds to call.

i usually like to do it with hands like AT rather than JT or 44, just because you pretty much always have at least 30% equity if they actually call you, even if that is with kings.

so usually it prices you in for a shove. but frequently thats ok, because you have the chip stack to sustain this. i would rather lose 20bb in a single 30% situation than to call too frequently and bleed my chips away

[rcon]

i would rather lose 20bb in a single 30% situation than to call too frequently and bleed my chips away

TAG, FTW!