Rules ??

[Lizard]

Ok blinds are SB-$5,000 BB-$10,000
1st to act folds next player goes all in for $11,000 next player wants to call the $11,000 but is told he has to put in $20,000 so he folds and all other players also fold only BB calls.
Is this correct??

Also would'nt be a good idea if all TD's carry around the rule book?


[edit by Pete - really people, is it so hard to put questions for the NPL in the proper place?]

[Ondie J]

He HAD to put in 20k as the min call. If no one called, he would have rec'd change.

[Ondie J]

Hi pete

[AceLosesKing]

Ok blinds are SB-$5,000 BB-$10,000
1st to act folds next player goes all in for $11,000 next player wants to call the $11,000 but is told he has to put in $20,000 so he folds and all other players also fold only BB calls.
Is this correct??

Some questions.

1. Who told you that?
2. You didn't clarify it with the TD?

Nah, you only have to call the $11k, yeah? Its a raise higher than the BB, its not like blinds were $10,000 - $20,000, then if someone had gone in for $11,000 you'd have to call $20,000 (unless its heads up), but $5,000 - $10,000 blinds... I don't think so.

Edit: Screw my idea. Ondie would know more about the rules than me.

Edit edit: HA!

Says an NPL Staff member...

Why would he have to put in $20,000? He can call the all in bet of $11,000. The only reason he would need to put in $20,000 is if he was going to raise.

Also would'nt be a good idea if all TD's carry around the rule book?

No. First of all, I don't even think the rules have been printed into book form. Secondly, I've browsed the rules, they're long, realistically it'd be impossible to have to carry that over every 5 seconds when someone wants a clarification on the rules, then spend 10 minutes searching for the exact paragraph. And finally, most (if not all) TD's know the rules. They know what they're doing.

[Ross Williams]

Why would he have to put in $20,000? He can call the all in bet of $11,000. The only reason he would need to put in $20,000 is if he was going to raise.

[Brett Kay]

If he wants to reopen the betting then he has to put in 20k. As it is 11k is the greatest bet he can call that.

Good post from another forum.
Main Point

The full-bet rule
=================

This is a rule you can expect to see either completely ignored or
abused in pub games. This is part of the price you pay for playing
in pub tournaments- they're cheap to play and you play against
bad opponents, but rules sometimes get ignored or incorrectly applied.

Even a major online site once applied this rule incorrectly in
a cash game, and to their credit refunded the player disadvantaged
when he pointed it out to customer support at the site concerned.

Here's how the full bet rule works. A player bets. Another player
re-raises all-in for less than a raise would have been if
he'd had enough chips. Other players call. When action returns to
the original better, he cannot raise any further, he can only call
the all-in player's bet.

To put some numbers in it, imagine sb has 10,000 bb has 4,000 and
button has 7,000. After the flop, sb bets 2,500. bb goes all in for
4,000 which is less than a full raise. button calls the 4,000.
sb can now only call the 4,000 he can't go all-in for his 10,000.

On the other hand, if sb had bet 2,000, bb goes all in for 4,000
and button calls the 4,000 sb can now push all in for 10,000 since
bb's all in was a full bet.

Since the first thing new players learn is "In No Limit Holdem you
can bet all your chips at any time", and that's almost always true,
application of the full bet rule is sketchy at best.

Here's a one sentence rule that sums up the full-bet rule:
"If it wasn't a full raise, betting is not re-opened".

RULES.

Don Bradman took and passed the cricket umpire's exam while he
was captain of Australia. He had no interest in becoming a
cricket umpire, he just wanted to know all of the rules in
every situation so that he could use them to full advantage
on the field. He sensibly wanted to be in control of the
situation at all times and never be in the position where
umpires or opposition captains could put anything past him.

This article covers four frequently misunderstood and
misapplied poker rules.

Pre-flop Min Reraise
====================

Imagine blinds are 50-100, and the under the gun player
raises to 500. If someone wants to re-raise this, the minimum
he needs to raise to is 900, not 1000.

This is because the initial raise was from a call of 100 to an
amount of 500, which is a raise of 400. The next raise needs
to be at least 400, so is 500 + 400 = 900 or more.

After the flop, turn and river, when bets are done into a new
betting round, if someone bets 500 the raise is 1000 or more,
but pre-flop the minimum raise is to 900.

I love making pre-flop min reraises like this to smoke out
the table captains who insist the reraiser has to make it 1000
or more. A small argument usually develops which annoys the
table captains when they're proven wrong. Anyone who stands
up for the min-reraise to 900 is usually a thoughtful player
who knows a few things about rules and bet sizing.

Acting out of turn
==================

This is one of the plagues of the pub poker scene. Before
first-to-act gets to act, a player announces a bet (even "all in")
out of turn, usually as an angle-shoot to bully first-to-act
into checking. There are only two possible (but very different)
rulings on the out-of-turn's action:

(A) The bet is ruled void and the chips are returned to the out-of-turn
player. If all the players before him check, the out-of-turn player
must also check. If a player before him bets, then free
action is available to the out-of-turn player who can now call/raise/fold
as usual.

(B) The bet is valid. If first-to-act bets more, out-of-turn's chips
remain in the pot even if he decides to fold.

Ruling (A) is the most common and would be the expected ruling in most
pub games/mob rules games. Ruling (B) has recently been adopted
by Crown Casino for their cash games, so should become more prevalent
in coming years. PokerDome might also adopt it.

Under ruling (A), late-acting players can angle-shoot to get free
cards, usually when they're on a draw. Say the flop is 89K, two hearts.
An out of turn player holds A9 offsuit (Ace of hearts) and can announce
all-in to bully everyone into checking around and give him a free
turn card which can either give him two pair AA99, trip 999 or a draw
to the nut flush.

Late acting players already have enough advantage without being able
to bully free cards like this. I'm hoping ruling (B) can gain ground,
but unless you know otherwise, expect ruling (A) to apply.

The full-bet rule
=================

This is a rule you can expect to see either completely ignored or
abused in pub games. This is part of the price you pay for playing
in pub tournaments- they're cheap to play and you play against
bad opponents, but rules sometimes get ignored or incorrectly applied.

Even a major online site once applied this rule incorrectly in
a cash game, and to their credit refunded the player disadvantaged
when he pointed it out to customer support at the site concerned.

Here's how the full bet rule works. A player bets. Another player
re-raises all-in for less than a raise would have been if
he'd had enough chips. Other players call. When action returns to
the original better, he cannot raise any further, he can only call
the all-in player's bet.

To put some numbers in it, imagine sb has 10,000 bb has 4,000 and
button has 7,000. After the flop, sb bets 2,500. bb goes all in for
4,000 which is less than a full raise. button calls the 4,000.
sb can now only call the 4,000 he can't go all-in for his 10,000.

On the other hand, if sb had bet 2,000, bb goes all in for 4,000
and button calls the 4,000 sb can now push all in for 10,000 since
bb's all in was a full bet.

Since the first thing new players learn is "In No Limit Holdem you
can bet all your chips at any time", and that's almost always true,
application of the full bet rule is sketchy at best.

Here's a one sentence rule that sums up the full-bet rule:
"If it wasn't a full raise, betting is not re-opened".

Single chip throwout
====================

Blinds are 50-100 and first to act casually throws out a 500 chip.
What does this mean? A raise to 500? A call of 100? A minimum raise
to 200? What's going on here??

This area of poker really needs tidying up, in the same way that
string betting has been tidied up out of the game. In casinos, a
single chip throwout constitutes a call.

I found this out the hard way when I played in a 10/20 limit game
and the first hand I got was KK in the big blind. Action got around
to me with a raise of $10 with 4 runners and I wanted to re-raise. I'd
just bought in for $400 so I had two big piles of red $5 chips
for $200 and 8 little green $25 chips for the other $200. Without
announcing anything I tossed a green $25 chip in, and it was
counted as a call.

I ended up winning the pot with my pocket Kings, but by getting my
raising wrong with the single chip toss-in and no verbal annoucement,
I cost myself another $30 in the pot when the other three players
in the pot would have called my pre-flop re-raise.

I've played around 5,000 hands of poker since my single-chip toss-in
cost me $30 in a pot. Out of those 5,000 hands, I have not made
the single chip throwout mistake a single time. You learn your
lessons well when they cost you money.

In a pub game, the guy who threw out the 500 chip would be asked
what he wanted to do. He could potentially angle-shoot the mood
of the table to his thrown-out chip before deciding if he was
raising or calling.

If two or more chips are thrown out without annoucement, it stands
as the value of the chips thrown in, or a call if it's not a full
raise. So if the call is 800 and someone chucks in two 500 chips,
that's a call and 200 change is given.

The safest and simplest thing to do is announce what you're doing
at every action. "Call 600. Raise to 1500. Fold". Try not to
say "Calling" because it sounds an awful lot like "All in".
If you do say "Calling", say the amount such as "Calling 600".

Dr Straight -www.pokernetwork.com

[Lizard]

Just ment to carry the rules around to look at for anybody who is intrested and if someone dos'nt agree with a TD (not everyone is perfect )
Sure don't expect to stop the game to check out something.
But it could be looked up and sorted out for next time.

Also it was a TD that said the $20,000 had to go in, we were on the final table I disagreed but it realy did'nt worry me as it was not me that wanted to make the bet.

This is an extract of what i thought is the latest from the rules but if it is not what are the current rules to date and where ?

4. In tournament play, an all-in wager less than the minimum bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player who has not yet acted (or had the betting reopened to him by another player’s action), facing an all-in wager of less than half a bet, may fold, call, or complete the wager. (An example of a full raise on a $200 betting round is raising a $150 all-in bet to $350.) Multiple all-in wagers, each of an amount too small to individually qualify as a raise, still act as a raise and reopen the betting if the resulting wager size to a player qualifies as a raise.

[BigPete33]

There is a link to the rules on the left hand side of the main index of this forum.



I'm led to believe that all the TD's have a copy of the rules on them (most likely on their laptops). I'm also led to believe that they have been strongly encouraged (read: not open for debate) to read and be acquainted with them in order for us all to feel confident the TD is making the correct decision at all times.

[Matty Norwood]

most of us do carry a printed copy of the rules in the event that they need to be used. In saying that hopefully all Td's have read the rules and can understand them.

[Scotty]

So, the argument is whether a "raise" (ie an allin raise that is less than a min-raise) acutally constitutes a raise? Without (re)consulting the rule book for the NPL, my understanding (when playing elsewhere) has always been of the >50 percent rule - that is if the all in bet equates to less than a fifty percent raise of the current big blind, subsequent players are permitted to call the total amount, which in the original example is 11k on a BB of 10k.