Another WSOP Hypothetical

[JMACK007]

For the record, I am quite sure that if you asked the same question to any of the previous winners of the main event, they would all be calling on that hypothetical....

[Garth Kay]

I call the all in; but I would fold if three or more people have moved all in before me.

My equity in the hand decreases dramatically the more hands that are involved. At one stage you can actually have only 23% equity in the hand, no way I am putting my tourney life on the line so early in the tournament when I know I can find more +EV spots as well as eek as much as I can out of this experience.

This question wasn't about playing poker or strat; it was about where do you draw the line when it comes to THE poker experience vs. poker play on the first hand of the tourney?

In the scenario I listed you are actually facing more than likely three all ins (two all ins previous) UTH still to act but no odds to call but MP has half his stack invested and will probably commit his chips.

With AA in this three handed situation I am looking at around 60% equity, this has now become almost a coin flip on the first hand of the tournament - do you get the point now? Do you commit your chips on a coin flip on the first hand of every poker player's dream tournament?

The more players involved after three our equity decreases exponentionally. And it's a known fact you don't want to play big pockets in more than a three way multiway.

I was hoping to leave this open for a while for some further discussion but apparently you got annoyed with me for something.

Yes, you do know how to play poker and obviously dominate at the 888PL level over and over again. But I am allowed to disagree with you Jo, it happens, but I didn't disagree with anything you had to say apart from the fact that it's not a faster snap call in my scenario compared to old man Swanky's, simply because my equity is not the same in the hand and I will lose this hand 40% of the time rather than the 20% of the time in old man Swanky's hypothetical.

[Garth Kay]

For the record, I am quite sure that if you asked the same question to any of the previous winners of the main event, they would all be calling on that hypothetical....

Jo,

It's not about the hand or strat - it's about poker play vs the possible duration of your experience for the layman. Any winner of the ME has no convern about this anymore, because they are obviously loaded and guaranteed to be back the next year and the year after that.

How do you not get what this thread is about? What's up with you tonight mate? It's like your spoiling for a fight?

[JMACK007]

Remember these guys are playing the first hand of the biggest tournament in the world as well. What do you think these guys are going all in with?? Are you saying that if they have JJ+ - AKs, you would fold?

If you are there to win, you cannot fold AA here. You can pay 10K for better experiences, but If you pay it for the WSOP ME, go there to win. And you are in a great position for a kick start right here.....

[JMACK007]

Jo,

It's not about the hand or strat - it's about poker play vs the possible duration of your experience for the layman. Any winner of the ME has no convern about this anymore, because they are obviously loaded and guaranteed to be back the next year and the year after that.

How do you not get what this thread is about? What's up with you tonight mate? It's like your spoiling for a fight?

I meant before they won it mate!

I can hear old man Swanky in the background already chanting fight, fight, fight!!

But I am only really discussing my point of view here mate...

[Garth Kay]

I do agree with you Jo, you call in old man Swanky's scenario, I don't snap call even quicker in my scenario and I definitely consider folding if I am facing more than three all ins before me.

I can only equate it to being in the position of BvB on the first hand and the SB shoves all in and says to you I have AK off. You look down at TT. Do you call here as well?

This is almost the same equity you will have for three all ins and you holding AA. Do you understand my hesitation now? And why it isn't as much a snap call as first thought? You're racing off you stack on the first hand.

I am almost guaranteed to find a better equity spot to commit my chips further into the tournaments.

[JMACK007]

SB shoving when we have 10 10 is a completely different scenario than this mate.

I don't think I will ever be scared to commit all my chips preflop with AA, it is in front of every other hand preflop. (certain bubble situations might be different).

It loses plenty as well, but a poker player not willing to push his chips in with it preflop, especially on the first hand, really needs to toughen up I recon.

There will be much tougher calls to come in the tourney, and if you don't have the balls to make this call, it only sets the scene for being weak later on.

I don't think anyone would beat themselves up if they called this (even if everyone was allin) and lost. They had AA?? How can you get away from that???

I know its a romantic hypothetical, but if you have made the effort to go there and pay the 10K, you need to do so thinking about more than just the experience, you need to go there to win!

As I said above, do you really think these guys are going allin with 10J suited or similar (particularly calling the allin)? I don't think so, probably big pairs or AK.....So you have them dominated right?? ( you have any hand dominated, but want to see pairs turned over here....)

[bennymacca]

Jmack have you put it into pokerstove like Garth suggested?

[Garth Kay]

SB shoving when we have 10 10 is a completely different scenario than this mate.

Actually it isn't that different. I suggest pokerstove for all of your answers.

[gmatical]

Good discussion here, it seems to me that Jo is a decisive player - stuff the 'experience value' or possibility that the community cards may kill you - the cards do the talking when they are AA (preflop).

Waiting for a more +EV situation is possible, but if we are folding AA pre and in turn play this uber-cautious approach - by the time we find this spot our stack size may have dwindled to insignifigance.

I'm not sure if you are saying you WOULD fold here Garth, but alot of your posts resonate about 'pushing your edge' - so pre-flop with AA - we are ALWAYS ahead (unless opponent hold AA too) so doesn't this edge make the call correct?

I 'stoved' it (AA v AKsuited V KK v QQ) - 66/8/9/17% I cant see any other hands calling or pushing in this scenario. Adding in 7 8 suited skews the numbers - but they would have to be crazy to be involved with this in a tourney.

For what its worth on the 'tournament experience factor' I think once you pick up those first 2 cards should be where the experience ends* - from then on play cards to the best of your ability and what will be will be.

* some other factors may come, bubble for money, bubble for FT etc... but these are not relevent at this stage of discussion.