The Great Poker Paradox

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AJG
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The Great Poker Paradox

Postby AJG » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:23 am

[Preface: Why does this forum auto convert 'd o n k' to 'non-thinking player'?]
I always say, I'd rather sit at a table with 7 or 8 players BETTER than me, than worse (OK, maybe 6 better and 2 worse :) )
Its is usually easier to play good players than bad ones.
Those of us who take NLHE seriously and try to improve our game, we analyze online hand histories, we read books & online forums/resources, we talk to players we respect, we replay hands in out head at the break or after the game playing out different plays etc.
But when it comes down to it, it mostly comes to nothing.
Let me explain why I say this.
Say your in a situation (whatever) and think to yourself, if I bet out X here on the turn and he calls, that means he'll be playing for his whole stack on the river. YOU KNOW THAT. But most players don't think like that. You make that X bet, thinking to yourself "If this was reversed I'd realize I am playing for my whole stack on the river, so I better have a hand with good showdown value", in the hope that your opponent will fold marginal hands. But he WON'T if he is not thinking the same way, which 95% of the time they aren't!
And the old rule of thumb: If a call preflop is 40%+ of your stack you may as well shove. Well how many times have you seen players with 1550 stack bet 1500???? (I know I have way too many times)
And many many other examples of similar.

I have built a fairly substantial online bankroll from almost nothing (free $50 from pokerstrategy.com) grinding through the micro limits, ergo coming head to head with many a crazy, donk.
Personally how I came to deal with this (after many a scream of "How do you call a push with a 5 high flush draw?" [which hit!]) is to play ultra tight the first few levels/orbits until you identify those maniacs, then play ultra tight and only SMALL pots against them. Even lay the best hand on the flop if they raise you or make some other maniacal move. The chips you SAVE in a tournament can be worth more than the chips you win.
How many times have you lost half your stack with JTs to one of these maniacs, only to be dealt rockets the very next hand, and think to yourself "Gee those chips I just lost (or some of them) would be real handy here!" - Especially when you raise, and someone comes over the top allin and shows JJ!
So when playing the crazed maniac, just play very very cautiously.
And lets face it, as I said above, fancy moves like a chk-call on the flop followed by a shove on the turn, or a chk-raise on the turn/river/or both are lost on most of these players. As is a raise from UTG, which any good player will interpret as strength, but no not these guys... No respect! They won't think twice about calling your UTG raise from MP with QTo or 98s or 33. And darn how many times to they hit and hit hard? flops of 89J or 985 or T73??
Whoops, there's your aces cracked..... again....

I think it reasonable to say that at the micros, when u get down to the top 5-10% of any decent size (1000+ entrants) MTT you no longer have to worry about such players, but occasionally they will sneak through.
It's also reasonable to say that even when playing a $200 buyin MTT you will still come across these types of players. Early on in my poker 'career' I satellited into the Sunday $1M GTD on pokerstars and raised 4BB [200] UTG with AA, only to be called by the hi-jack with 33 who hit his set (his very well disguised set - surely he didn't call me with pocket 3s????) but was savvy enough to fold to his 3bet on the flop, so it didnt hurt me that much (so example above was from a real hand as you see, but I put him on trip Ts not 3s)

So.... I think it is a paradox of this game we love called Poker, that it can be easier to play good players than bad ones.
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby maccatak11 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:48 am

Good post. I agree that it is easier to play against better players, bu still very hard to play against the best.

Against better players i am able to put them on a range of hands a LOT easier, and most semi-experienced players do similar things with similar hands the vast majority of the time.

The best players however, know that other players on the table are likely to read them on a certain range of hands, and adjust their play in response to this - and thats where it gets tricky.

I liken it to the first 2 hours of a champs main event, which normally is quite easy as most players are only playing premium cards in standard ways. Therefore easy reads. But once you are 5 hours into the tourney, the best players have large stacks and they know that nobody will read them on AA if they flat from UTG or shove from the button. This is where things get interesting.

So i think its easy to play against better players, but give me a table of beginners anyday over a table of the very best.
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby Scotty » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:11 am

Excellent first few posts AJG, and welcome to the forum mate :)

In regards to your opening gambit - the term has been outlawed from live 888pl events, so we tweaked it here as well ;)

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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby bennymacca » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:16 am

good post, but there is 1 very big mistake that you can make

if you dont adjust your game against weak players, and only play like you are playing against the stronger players, then it is YOU that is at fault, not them.

i.e if they are too dumb to understand cbets or turn bet sizing to make them comitted on the river, then it is your responsibility to make sure you only bet with strong hands not theirs.
they can play any way they wish - we just have to adapt our games so it is profitable.

i would say that it is much more FUN to play against better players, because you can run more advanced plays and meta game becomes much more important. but give me a table of loose passive 60/10/0.5 players any day thankyou very much
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby David » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:02 am

That's why Poker is such a different beast.

Any sport/past time in the world - if you are better, you will beat the people who aren't as good. And, you'd prefer to play them.

It's so hard for someone to get lucky in say, a game of footy :)
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby Origami » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:51 am

AJG u r welcome at my Table anytime anywhere...

Like your style and attitude seen some of your "online games". and achievements.
Eyeballing and a few bevvies make most live games alot more of a challenge .
Non thinking players seems to think they think/play better with a few ales and in fact some do,but as you say a table of more knowledgeable,tactical and skillful players make for a enjoyable/good game of Poker. :geek:
Hope we meet soon at a Pokergame near you.
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby Nevah play JJ » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:33 pm

Hi AJG,
Awesome post and welcome to the forums.
I wanted to ask if your equating this to online play or table play or possibly both?


AJG wrote:Its is usually easier to play good players than bad ones.

OMG, I fully agree.
But are good players easier to play because they are consistent with their play and betting?

Most times.... I stress most times.. Good players won't chase, they respect raises from whatever position they come from and they do position play.

Last night on our table, we had 4 loose aggressive, 1 unpredictable but solidish, 1 very solid, 1 who is easily scared off and myself and we had the worst types of play possible. Raises with 57s and they HIT... they got the flush. Same bloke, all ins all over the table played T8o hit the straight on the flop.
He was being played by KQs, 33, A5o. Ok not the most wonderful of hands, but to be honest, the table was extremely loose and very aggressive.

How can you play that sort of thing?
I did what I have been taught to do on these forums and tightened up. But to be honest, I had used 2 cards before the break, was only playing top card ranges such as A-T. So I tightened up even more.

I truly believe that if I was playing "good consistent players" rather than "loose aggressive players", I wouldn't learn how to adapt my game. I think I would be happy to be in the "Good player" rut and not change or find ways out of my situation. (I hope that makes sense).


AJG wrote:So.... I think it is a paradox of this game we love called Poker, that it can be easier to play good players than bad ones.

Again, I do agree... It is easier, but is it something you can still learn from?
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby bennymacca » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:41 pm

Nevah play JJ wrote:How can you play that sort of thing?


you are right JJ, the best way to play against loose aggressive players is to tighten up your range

BUT with the tignening of your range, you have to get a lot more aggressive with those hands, especially when short stacked.

limping out of position is simply not an option, as these players will bet any pair on the flop. its better off to overbet and pick up the blinds then have to play out of position against a lag with anything less than 2 pair, as it will be hard for you to know where you are at
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby Nevah play JJ » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:48 pm

bennymacca wrote:
Nevah play JJ wrote:How can you play that sort of thing?


you are right JJ, the best way to play against loose aggressive players is to tighten up your range

BUT with the tignening of your range, you have to get a lot more aggressive with those hands, especially when short stacked.

limping out of position is simply not an option, as these players will bet any pair on the flop. its better off to overbet and pick up the blinds then have to play out of position against a lag with anything less than 2 pair, as it will be hard for you to know where you are at

That is what I thought.. Thanks heaps again benny the cunt.

I was down to 900 after the break, got AQ, went all in, got one caller and doubled up. It kind of went from there. I did end up making final table, but I did use that aggression and top cards to get my chip stack back up.

I was even happy to steal blinds a few times, because it gave me a few free blind levels to look at.

Basically what you wrote confirmed what I already thought, but it really helped.
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Re: The Great Poker Paradox

Postby AJG » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:34 pm

bennymacca wrote:good post, but there is 1 very big mistake that you can make

if you dont adjust your game against weak players, and only play like you are playing against the stronger players, then it is YOU that is at fault, not them.

i.e if they are too dumb to understand cbets or turn bet sizing to make them comitted on the river, then it is your responsibility to make sure you only bet with strong hands not theirs.
they can play any way they wish - we just have to adapt our games so it is profitable.


Ummm... I think thats what i said (or tried to atleast)

Nevah play JJ wrote:Hi AJG,
I wanted to ask if your equating this to online play or table play or possibly both?

Yeah, both...

AJG wrote:Its is usually easier to play good players than bad ones.

OMG, I fully agree.
But are good players easier to play because they are consistent with their play and betting?
Most times.... I stress most times.. Good players won't chase, they respect raises from whatever position they come from and they do position play.

This is mostly why I prefer playing with good players, they don't often call a pot-sized bet chasing a gutshot.


I truly believe that if I was playing "good consistent players" rather than "loose aggressive players", I wouldn't learn how to adapt my game. I think I would be happy to be in the "Good player" rut and not change or find ways out of my situation. (I hope that makes sense).
Well it seems to me watching major events a from recent poker literature etc, that the LAGs ARE the best players (Patrik Antonious?), and agree playing against many styles helps us to learn to adapt and 'change gears'


AJG wrote:So.... I think it is a paradox of this game we love called Poker, that it can be easier to play good players than bad ones.

Again, I do agree... It is easier, but is it something you can still learn from?
Learn what? I think if your oppponents are of a better standard than you, you SHOULD be learning from them.
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