You're a Bunch of Factors

For Out calculations please refer back to Holdem Topic 1: Calculating outs.

This was mentioned back in PLO Topic 1. I need to expand on this for people to fully understand what a cohesive hand is. In omaha, as mentioned many times, the power of your hand is in its drawing ability. Hands that can draw to the nut flush or to nut straights, are always the most profitable, because as stated people will bet two pairs, and trips, and then get caught by someone value betting the further streets with a made hand, obviously this can then get reversed into them value betting back when the board has paired.

Cohesive hands, are hands that give you both the abilities to make straights, and to make flushes. Whether they are to the nuts or not is irrelevant. Remember that the median hand in Omaha is trips, so a straight is on the slope of the bell curve, while the flush is just wee bit up from the bottom.

Some examples of cohesive hands are AAKK double suited, AAJT double suited, 6678single suited, 5678 unsuited. 56 910 single suited. 9,10 q k unsuited. Most of these hands are in some sort of a run, this helps to get wrap around straight draws which give you a heft amount of outs.

So using the 5678. The board comes down. 3,4,8. Not worrying about suits.
The outs that we are carrying are, 4 x 2's, 3x5's, 3x6's, 3x7's. Giving us a total of 13 outs. Or roughly 52% to hit on the turn and river. Not a bad hand. This is an inside straight wrap. Obviously if we have a flush draw we get more outs.

Using 5 6 9 10. The board comes down 7,8,4. The number of outs start to get bigger. 4x J's, 3x 10's, 3x9s, 3x6's, 3x5's, 4x3's Giving us a total of 20 outs. 80% chance of winning on the turn or the river. This is called a wraparound straight, valuable hand, that can give you multiple chances of taking down a big pot. Don't let the outs fool you though. You still are behind to their pair. Your still waiting for one of the cards to make your hand.

Obviously once we get flush draws added on, we are starting to look at over 60% of the deck is in your favour, pending people having higher flushes (which is standard), or people having the higher end of the straight (also standard). So when you are examining your hand, I can't stress this enough.

ALWAYS KNOW WHAT CAN BEAT YOUR HAND.

I lost Aces full of kings to a royal flush in omaha. I thought I was unbeatable but the guy called and hit his queen of diamonds to take the pot. You have to be aware. Once you know what can beat your hand, you can bet accordingly. Obviously if you have the 4th nut flush, getting reraised on a bet can give you many indications. If there is only 2 cards to the flush out there, at least you know that you have the outs to keep you in the game. However if the flush card comes, you have to work out what the player is after and think about the other streets and how he bet on them.

Was he keeping the pot controllable for his draws? Was he betting big, making it expensive for other draws? Has the board paired – Could he have quads or a full house?

If you try and put people on hands in omaha you will go insane we are talking about 28000 possible combinations. So unless you are Aaron or Bennymacca, you can't run that good at picking the hand. Understanding why they are playing the way they are you can do. This helps in holdem and makes you think about why they are playing a hand strongly.

Any feedback helps me know if people are getting the ideas.

I am reading, and I'm liking.

I particularly like your tips on how to narrow ranges(wrong word, but it will do) in Omaha - something I don't really do too well, as I'm too busy working out my own draws (I usually play h/l - I know, silly, as I should master hi before proceeding)

I'll prob not have a chance to try it for a day or two tho

Just a general PLO question:

In Holdem, the fewer players ie 6 v 9 at a ring game, u open ur range more, maybe bluff a bit more etc. I usually play 6max ring games in Holdem as it suites my style of play more (more LAG than in a tourney). So my question is, does the same principal apply in Omaha?
This may sound a stupid question, but as u mentioned in the other thread about the near futility of raising pre flop, and that PLO is more of a post flop game with more draw chasing, I couldnt quite nut this one out. Plus its easier (and usually safer) to ask someone more knowledgable than oneself

And would you consider a player at your table who raises often less knowledgable about PLO? I actually saw a guy reraise pot size an already pot sized raise, and call a rereraise potsize preflop with TT78 ds!

In answer to your question:

Hold em and Omaha are two different games whilst certain strategies and thinking apply to both of these games Omaha is a mathematical game first and foremost whilst hold em is a more psychological game with maths to back your decisions.

The pre flop edge held in OMaha against the best starting hand compared to the worst starting hand is almost negligible whilst in Hold em the best starting hand holds a 4 to 1 edge against the worst.

Omaha is not about pre flop aggression as hold em is. By raising pre flop with small edges you actually increase the impact variance has on your stack and bankroll because the best edge you can have is almost 2 - 1 in any given hand.

In Hold Em 6 max games it is all about exploiting your pre flop edges because game play theory suggest that your opponents will be limited in the strengths of their hand dealt to a six handed table. Whilst in Omaha it is about exploiting your opponents weaknesses post flop, in saying that hand selection is still very important and identifying your opponents playing characteristics is just as important as it is in hold em.

Thanks, but what is the verdict regarding 6 v 9 players games in PLO? What I 'read into' your reply suggested 9 player games are better, and that yes players that raise big preflop dont know PLO that well...?

I prefer 6 max. Simply because I will play almost 60% of my hands pre flop against weak opponents and I don't care how quickly the blinds come around.

In saying that I truly love six max in Omaha because I only need to monitor the actions of 5 players rather than 8. My hand selection opens right up and position does not play such an important part, especially in Pot Limit games. I play a very loose passive game pre depending on my opponents and I normally go searching for the weak fish on my watch list and join that table.

In six handed PLO pot control is a lot easier and hand ranges are very dynamic but at most times very specific and easier to ascertain. But play in a nine handed micro to mid stakes game and go to a flop with 6 players, it become ridiculous, isolation doesn't work and generally you face at least two POT bets on the flop; it is just mayhem. Laying down the second and third nuts in a full ring game is the norm. Whilst in a six max ring then second through to fourth nuts are generally the goods just simply based on game play theories and hand dispersion for short handed PLO.

If you are learning the game and you have the bankroll for it, 6 max is the way to go. You actually grasp the ropes and basics of hand selection in a PLO game by playing short handed without costing yourself mush in the way of tuition fees. Full ring you are almost always guaranteed to run into the absolute nuts almost every hand, especially in micro stakes.

I hope that makes sense. Sometimes I have trouble communicating complex concepts in layman terms, especially in PLO.

6 max vs Full ring of 9 or 10.

It is one of those debatable questions. everyone has their own comfort levels when they play. As Garth said, in 6 max, hand dispersion starts to play a factor, in that all of a sudden 2nd to 4th nuts are valued hands rather than folding them in a full ring game. However the downside of 6 max is that you are going to have to play a lot more hands, and at a quicker rate, whilst also at the same time, having to go to the river with 2nd to 4th nuts. If you enjoy a gamble and take a few risks 6 max is probably a lot easier to deal with, but you will still have to risk a few hands.

In full ring, you can sit back and wait for decent hands before playing. But if you do enjoy the gamble, you can get paid off more with nuts. Because more cards, equals more opportunities for people to take down the pots.

I like 6 max, but if i am playing sit n go's, i prefer full ring. Just a simple maths, top 2 get paid in 6, top 3 get paid in 9, when a person gets knocked out, chips go up by 1/6th and 1/9th respectively. So it is easier to come back if you suffer a beat.

Obviously the gent repotting with the 10's in the hole. He was taking advantage of a lot of cards helping his hand, and knowing that the other player is going into it with either one suit nut flush. And weak straight draws. Also could be depending on previous history with the other player. Look at it from his point of view as well. Isolate and take the pot to an unpaired hand, check and lost it to one over card pair?

Thanks guys, very helpful

OK i was out first hand of the PLO game tonight, so i will post the hand for discussion.

I am dealt 44A9 (A9 were spades) in mid position and limp in. I would consider this a reasonably decent starting hand, although i have little chance of a straight, but good enough to see a flop.

There were 7 players to this flop i believe.

Flop comes [Ah][9c][2c]

Not a bad flop for me, and its checked to me so i bet about 3/4 of the pot. (about 250 into a 300 pot i think).

I get one caller (pot about 900 now)

Turn [4s]

So now i have a set with plenty of outs for the house. I am first to act and bet about 730 into the 900 pot. (i have 1000 left behind now). the same guy calls.

River [7c]

This is where i screw up. Its pretty clear he might have had a pair/flush draw before this, so he has prob just made his hand.

I check and he bets his last 1000. so its all in for me to call into a 3300 pot. I make the call (this i know was a mistake. the holdem player in me is what made me lean toward would have making this call, but clearly there is a much higher chance of him having the flush in omaha compared to holdem).

He showed [ac][3c] for the nut flush, so i lost the hand, BUT

Did i play the hand correctly before the river. I had what i considered to be a strong hand on both the flop and the turn, but were my 3/4 pot sized bets appropriate?

Should i have bet smaller and/or check/called any of the streets to make the pot smaller and lessen my potential losses. Its always these type of hands that are getting me into trouble in omaha.