Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

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Brett Kay
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Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Brett Kay » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:05 am

Hi Guys,

Decided i will start posting in this section to get some movement.
Probably go through a couple of the basic strategies and tips to help out some of the players that might not fully understand the concepts.

Also helps me relearn a lot of stuff. :-)

Calculating outs.

One of the more basic steps in a poker game is being able to calculate your outs. So you know what kind of odds you are facing to win or lose a hand.

An "OUT" is simply cards that will improve your hand. So if you have an open ended straight draw i.e 8,9,10,J you have 4 7's and 4 q's that can improve your hand into a straight for a total of 8 outs.

With a four card flush draw i.e 7,10,Q, 2 of clubs. 13 cards to the suit minus the 4 in play. Leaves you with 9 outs.

So now we have a rough idea of what kinds of outs we are chasing. Some quick little ones to help out those still stuggling with it.

You are holding the Qc,Jc on a board of the 9d, 10c, 2,c. How many outs do you have left? So starting with the 4 card straight draw we have 8 outs, the 4 8's and the 4 k's. From the flush draw, we have 9 outs. 13 - 4 leaves 9 clubs. Gives us a total so far of 17 outs. However we have already included the 8c and the Kc from the straight draw. So now we have to go 17-2 = 15 outs. Good position.

So we have the number of outs. But what good is that? Knowing how many cards are in play (that we know off), and how many cards are left in the deck. We can work out a probability of what out chances are of hitting one of our outs.

So from the previous example Qc Jc on the 9d, 10c, 2c board. We know we have 15 outs. We only know 5 cards on the board. So that leaves 52 - 5 = 47 cards left in the deck.

Most people here usually include the burn card as a known card, but because it is upside down (barring an initial deal error) we still don't know what the card is. So we have to include it in our calculations.

Back at hand. We know 5 cards, we have 15 outs, there are 47 cards in the deck. And we still have the turn and river to come. So calculating the % of us getting a card to make our hand.

Complex method.

Its a straightforward calculation,
% of hitting a card = (outs/# of cards in the deck)x # of cards to come x 100 (to get the %).

So for the example. Flop to River.
% = (15/47)x 2 (turn and river) x 100
% = 63.8 %
So roughly 6 out of 10 times we should win this hand. or 3 in 5

Turn to river.
15 outs still, 46 cards left (we now know the turn). 1 Card to come.
% = (15/46)x1x100
% = 32.6
So now we have a rough idea of what chance we have to win the hand and can play the hand out accordingly or unless a feeling gets in the way. :-).

Simple method.
This is the quick and easy way to work out the %'s gives you a rough idea.

For the flop to river. two cards to come.
You times the number of outs x 4
So previously example, 15 x 4 = 60%

For the river or just one card.
You times the number of outs x 2
So previous example, 15 x 2 = 30%

So quick recap.
Outs are cards that are in the deck that can improve your hand. Be careful of over counting your outs, especially in flushes and straight draws.

You can use your outs to work out the probability of a card coming to improve your hand.

Simple way of calculating the probability. Is with the turn and river to come, is times the number of outs x 4, just with the river to come, times the number of outs x 2.

Cheers,
Brett.

If anyone else wants me to try and explain certain topics, by all means. Helps me relearn it all.

Also if some people disagree with me on some points i am all up for a discussion. Will also help other people understand it as well.
Yes i know my maths is slightly dodgy too, but just doing it quick and easy for most players to work out during a game.
Load "*" ,8,1
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Garth Kay
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Garth Kay » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:18 pm

Well written little bro.
Do you have nothing to do today?
Now moving on a step; let the people know the importance of hand probabilities: when and how it's used and the importance of using this information in correlation to pot odds and implied odds.
Then we can start talking about fold equity and expected returns.
Garth Kay

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Full House Group


Mobile: 0438 234 816
Email: garth@fullhousegroup.com.au

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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Des » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:07 pm

I love this shit... going to confuse all of the people going into state finals and when I'm bluffing they can't remember if they should call, fold or hire a CPA to work out the calculations for them ;)
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Brett Kay » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:18 pm

Going into pot odds next step.

And i was bored last night, check the time stamp.

Cheers,
Brett.
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Ondie J » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:34 pm

Nice. I particularly like the 'rough' way to give you a general idea of your % to hit. Definately keep topics like this rolling through.
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby BigPete33 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:00 pm

Des wrote:I love this ****... going to confuse all of the people going into state finals and when I'm bluffing they can't remember if they should call, fold or hire a CPA to work out the calculations for them ;)


Stop reading my mind Des ! :)
Pardon me, but I think you'll find that's a shovel. See you next Tuesday!

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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Brett Kay » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:14 pm

Just for all the guys out there planning on doing the evil thing.

Remember sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Also a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing as well.


In other words, you might try and use this to teach someone or confuse them.

They call,

And you will get outdrawn on. :-)

Hehehehe,
Trust me, seen it happen a lot.

Brett.
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Michael_Whiting » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:15 pm

Well written Brett, very well written ;)

Here's another calculation I'm still working out.....

Mathematical Expectation and the hourly rate...
divided by...
Pot Odds, Implied Odds and Reverse Implied Odds...
multiplied by...
the value of deception...
subtracted by...
the possibility of a semi bluff...
multiplied by...
the chance of a real bluff...
and finally divide that number into the fundamental theorem of Poker
...
giving us the final equated number of.......................anyone????!!!

:lol:
[as] [ac]
:D "All in"

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Brett Kay
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Brett Kay » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:22 pm

Michael_Whiting wrote:Well written Brett, very well written ;)

Here's another calculation I'm still working out.....

Mathematical Expectation and the hourly rate...
divided by...
Pot Odds, Implied Odds and Reverse Implied Odds...
multiplied by...
the value of deception...
subtracted by...
the possibility of a semi bluff...
multiplied by...
the chance of a real bluff...
and finally divide that number into the fundamental theorem of Poker
...
giving us the final equated number of.......................anyone????!!!

:lol:



I am going with.

a.) Why someone would call with that.
b.) How a donkeys mind doesn't work
c.) the Bad beat from hell
d.) A chair, busted monitor, and a broken credit card.

my winner though.
e.) How much money a person can lose to that drunk guy at the end of the table, looking at his cards but not knowing what they are. With the addition of a phrase such as "but they were suited" "i had pot odds" "my small blind was pot committed."

Cheers,
Brett.
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Re: Topic 1. Calculating Outs.

Postby Des » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:14 pm

Brett Kay wrote:
Michael_Whiting wrote:Well written Brett, very well written ;)

Here's another calculation I'm still working out.....

Mathematical Expectation and the hourly rate...
divided by...
Pot Odds, Implied Odds and Reverse Implied Odds...
multiplied by...
the value of deception...
subtracted by...
the possibility of a semi bluff...
multiplied by...
the chance of a real bluff...
and finally divide that number into the fundamental theorem of Poker
...
giving us the final equated number of.......................anyone????!!!

:lol:



I am going with.

a.) Why someone would call with that.
b.) How a donkeys mind doesn't work
c.) the Bad beat from hell
d.) A chair, busted monitor, and a broken credit card.

my winner though.
e.) How much money a person can lose to that drunk guy at the end of the table, looking at his cards but not knowing what they are. With the addition of a phrase such as "but they were suited" "i had pot odds" "my small blind was pot committed."

Cheers,
Brett.


No no no! I have to protect my blind.
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