You're a Bunch of Factors

Over the last few years as im sure we are all aware poker has become super aggressive and unprodicatable. the best players out there are opening and 3 betting with such a wide range now it seems impossible to put the better players on an accurate ranges.

with this in mind do you guys/girls think that it would be a profitable play to 4 bet bluff or 4 bet with marginal hands like small pockets or KQs or AJ off. the reason i ask this is these days i know im three betting with 4,5 suited in the big blind trying to steal the pot away and the more i play the more people i see do the same . i know a lot of this is going to go back to how well we know our opponant and how we are percieved on the table. but as a general rule do we think 4 betting is the new 3 betting and that it has to be qq's + if we ever get 4 bet by an opponant? if the answer is "yes he has to have a monster to 4 bet me" then i would say 4 bet bluffing should be quite a profitable play pre flop with the way poker is currently being played.

i know there is probably a lot of math involved with this and the technical poker math involved is probably a weak part to my game. but yeah what are peoples thoughts?

Welcome to the forum Jason!

I hope you can develop more discussion like you're OP.

Whilst I don't have time to go into details I do have to say that 4 bet bluffing is definitely becoming more profitable at certain levels and buy ins.

I don't think it is going to be profitable against a standard 20/18/5 player but against a few of the more aggressive/nittier players it is proving effective.

There are whole articles and strategies built around four bet bluffing from the button/blinds.

From what i have learned, i think the best thing to do is if you are 4betting, do it with a very polarized range. as a result, i would hardly ever 4bet something like AJ, or even AQ, but i would be 4betting suited connectors and suited low aces. i think a hand like AJ is too strong to be 4betting, but not strong enough to be getting it in. because if we are getting 5bet shoved with a hand like T9dd, we are still only a slight favourite. i would much rather flat and play a pot with these types of hands, especially in position, and 4bet the best and the worst of my opening range.

very good point. have to agree 4 betting with the stronger marginal hands is most likely going to get you into trouble on later streets if you connect with the flop, i think probably the only time we could or should be 4 betting with these sort of hands eg AJ is if we are pretty sure we can take it down pre flop or if we are in position at least then if someone calls our 4 bet we can re evaluate on the flop. A real advantage we have by having our 4 bet called is we are over representing our hand (trying to rep big pockets) which means that unless we have been trapped by our opponant it is unlikely that we will be called unless our opponant flops huge on us which is unlikely as we hold straight blockers. so pretty much a set is probably all that is going to call our flop continuation bet.

but yeah obviously depends on our image and who our opponant is. interesting though when we start to dig deeper into our thought processes on what we should be doing.

ps how good is it showing a 4 bet bluff with 8-9 suited when your opponant shows you qq's and folds lol.

Folding QQ against 89s without any other info tells me that you built a good table image, that have been tight. Shows the value of the occasional 4 bet bluff. Once you get caught it becomes harder 2 do.

yeah i had been playing at the table for about 4 hours at jupiters casino only last weekend and yeah had only been showing down big hands so my rock image made the play possible also my opponant was quite tight also and stacks were deep enough to play proper poker. the only reason i showed was i was on holidays and it wasnt my regular spot and i wanted to get the guy to steam for a couple of orbits as i was leaving soon lol.
you would never show a bluff like that if you were a regular. and of course if you get caught on a 4 bet bluff makes it much harder to pull off in future that being said you are more likely to get paid off by a marginal hand when you do have aces or kings.