For Jav1000

[JMACK007]

BTW, I wasn't gonna mention it, but how is Jav's play of Shove, Shove, 2.5x raise with K3o a good play??? If anything, he is the one who should continue to Shove there with such a weak hand, if playing that hand at all, especially if he is gonna shove any flop at all.....

Yeah this is another interesting point. He did say though that he misread your stack size though so that might have had something to do with it. I agree that it can indicate more strength than a shove does, although given your stack size he basically was committing to putting you all in anyway. I agree that putting him on a range would be bloody hard, and that he could have almost anything, which is exactly my point.

Because he could have anything, with A7 against such a wide range and with only 5BB I'm taking the race every time, knowing that your A high is a pretty strong hand here.

Only a very specific read of super strength should mean a fold here I think. Also, the reason I think the was not optimal is that your A high will be food on a bunch if flops too, meaning that your chips are going in anyway, so you may as well get them in pre

Correct, although, depending on how the flop "felt" there would be times I could get away from it (not many). I was pretty much putting them all in anyway, but as I said above, He gave me the option to see the flop first (knowing he calls a shove, so I can just call seeing a flop before committing). Does it kinda start to make sense now? (biggest factor is knowing he calls if I shove pre)....

[bennymacca]

You should never ever ever be doing anything with 5bb except shoving or folding. End of story. In fact with less than about 15bb you shouldn't only be shoving or folding too.

I am not a big fan of javs play either given how short you are but seriously Jmack, your play is really terrible and the fact that you keep trying to defend it is why I thought about locking it because no amount of contrary opinion will change your mind

[JMACK007]

No probs mate, please don't lock it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and mine differs from yours.

[JMACK007]

And shoving with 15bb?? Really?? That's a good way to exit a tourney that you could have otherwise run deep in....
If someone calls a 15bb shove, you can be assured they have a premium hand. Even if you have AA or KK, why shove? You only miss out on some value when everyone folds. If you don't have AA or KK, and get called, then your opponent probably does and see you later.....

[madali]

If someone calls a 15bb shove, you can be assured they have a premium hand. Even if you have AA or KK, why shove? You only miss out on some value when everyone folds. If you don't have AA or KK, and get called, then your opponent probably does and see you later.....

I tend to be around 10 bb to shove but that is just me. However having said that unless you are playing with complete nits you will get called by Ax o, 2 picture cards, pocket pairs (hopefully lower than yours) and all suited connectors regularly. A loose aggressive big stack may also call you with mid running cards such as 9-10 o, 8-9 o etc and any 2 cards of the same suit. In position most big stacks will be raising with any two cards on the button and given this statistically you are ahead of his range with your shove (poker stove shows 59% ace 7 winning the hand against 41% when his range is any 2 cards) If you read is that he is super strong and has a premium hand then you have to fold as even when you hit your 7 you are an underdog to win ( 38% to 62%) and pre flop even worse (28% to 72%).

I am not having a go at your play Jo as you are a very solid player. What i am saying is you need to open your mind to other options and always be looking for the most + EV to play each hand.

[bennymacca]

And shoving with 15bb?? Really?? That's a good way to exit a tourney that you could have otherwise run deep in....
If someone calls a 15bb shove, you can be assured they have a premium hand. Even if you have AA or KK, why shove? You only miss out on some value when everyone folds. If you don't have AA or KK, and get called, then your opponent probably does and see you later.....

you really should read some poker books or sign up to a training site jmack, i think it will really open your eyes. i am pretty sure most people on that site would agree with my reasoning, as well as shoving up to 15bb. tournament poker edge is only $25 a month with no signup fee, you should check it out (and let me refer you if you want to)

[JMACK007]

you really should read some poker books or sign up to a training site jmack, i think it will really open your eyes. i am pretty sure most people on that site would agree with my reasoning, as well as shoving up to 15bb. tournament poker edge is only $25 a month with no signup fee, you should check it out (and let me refer you if you want to)

If you are gonna play by the book everytiime, you might as well have a bot playing for you....

[bennymacca]

noone said i was "playing by the book" but there are certain spots where there isnt really any other option, and this is one of them.

but there is no point trying to convince you otherwise so i wont

[666HARPS666]

My 2cents no matter how Jo played that Javier was calling it all the way.

[krunchie]

you really should read some poker books or sign up to a training site jmack, i think it will really open your eyes. i am pretty sure most people on that site would agree with my reasoning, as well as shoving up to 15bb. tournament poker edge is only $25 a month with no signup fee, you should check it out (and let me refer you if you want to)

If you are gonna play by the book everytiime, you might as well have a bot playing for you....

thats pretty short sighted Jmack, no offence intended but it is.

whats wrong with admitting that there is posibilities out there that you have not explored yet.