TONIGHTS MAIN EVENT CANCELLED MIDWAY THROUGH 11/08

[bennymacca]

Thanks JMACK for pointing out what you consider may be a leak, I will always take what others say on board.

And thanks trishan for looking at things from a different perspective and showing support.

The world (especially internet forums) would be very boring if we all agreed all the time. Good healthy discussion is what we all come here for, so lets keep on doing that without insults.

only if you want to of course, but if you wanna create another thread in the strategy forum, i would be interested in discussing your thoughts on this.

if you would rather keep it to yourself then thats completely fine

[JMACK007]

Last warning gents.

I will not tolerate bickering and defamatory comments on this forum or in any relation to the 888PL and it's players.

Trishan,

Whilst blame may be equally proportioned between both parties at this stage, I will say you are treading a very fine line at the moment. Whilst your intentions may not be to aggravate or insult others you are coming very close to the point when I decide I do not require more disruptive forces within this league.

Thanks JMACK for pointing out what you consider may be a leak, I will always take what others say on board.

And thanks trishan for looking at things from a different perspective and showing support.

The world (especially internet forums) would be very boring if we all agreed all the time. Good healthy discussion is what we all come here for, so lets keep on doing that without insults.

No probs, all I was getting at is my belief that you should never want to be at a disadvantage in chips in poker. The chip leader has a huge advantage over everyone if they use those chips correctly, that is all.

I am pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone? If I did I apologise.

[pundies]

No probs, all I was getting at is my belief that you should never want to be at a disadvantage in chips in poker. The chip leader has a huge advantage over everyone if they use those chips correctly, that is all.

Without a doubt they are and don't think I am folding Quads to put myself in this position, if I am chip leader great But if not, I can work with that too. I really do play a smaller stack better than I do a big one!

[AJG]

I cant see quite why one would wish NOT to be chip leader, but certainly the only time it REALLY matters is at the end of the tournament...?

Anyway, I headed over to both 888 and FTP to see if i could find anything in their Rules about cancelled tourneys, couldnt find anything on 888 (no surprises I guess) but FTP is quite explicit about this.

Before a tournet has started - Everyone just get's their money back.

During the tournament, but not ITM. - Every live player has their buyin and fee refunded. The buyins (only) of players that have busted is pooled, and this is distributed based on tournament equity (chip counts).

During a tournament - ITM - Every player has their tournament fee refunded. The prizepool is distributed based on tounament equity (chip counts).

[AJG]

I debated whether to send most of this as a PM to you benny the cunt, but decided that it might be better to post it so anyone can benefit.

i.e last night there was 17 runners, which means there was a $200 prize pool gtd

this makes 170k in chips.

i had about 29k in chips, which works out to 17.1% of the chips in play.

on full tilt,if the tourney was cancelled i would get 17% of $200, which means it would be $34.11, not $18 as i got on 888.

i am in no way asking for the $100 first prize, just because i was chip leader at the time.

does that make sense?

Yes, but not quite...

Your method of working out tournament equity is a bit simplified.
What you have done is work out your equity (17.1%) in the 1st place payout only.
You need to continue this process (which gets more complicated every place down) down to the lowest place payout.

I will use a 9/10 player SnG (50%/30%/20%) as simple example:

[for those without the background, P(X) simply means the probability of X occuring, and P(Y|X) is the conditional probability of Y, given that X has occured]

Overall your tounament equity (in %) is
P(1st) * .50 + P(2nd) * .30 + P(3rd) * .20
You then just multiply by the actual prizepool amount to get a $ value.

As stated above, P(1st) is simply: your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS.

The rub is in trying to calculate the probability of finishing every place but 1st!
To calulate for 2nd, you need to loop over all the remaining players (other than you)
SUM(over i < N) : P(player_i_1st) * (your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS - player_i_stack)

For 3rd it is even more complicated:
SUM(over i, j < N) : P(player_i_1st) * P(player_j_2nd | player_i_1st) * (your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS - player_i_stack - player_j_stack)

where N is the number of players, and we skip an iteration if YOU are player i or j...

PHEW!
Luckily there is a very simple recursive algorithm for this, as writing code to calculate this for large MTTs would really suck!

Anyway, this is the heart of ICM - Tournament Equity, and since this was also asked about it a short while back in another thread, I thought I would show exactly how it is calculated (I only went into it very sumarily in that other thread).

So as you can see (if you think of the implications of these formulae), your tournament equity is decided not only by your own stack, but by the exact values of the other stacks, given an equal number of players remaining (eg. extrememly short stacks will increase your eq% if you are chip leader) and by the exact payout structure of the tournament - top heavy structures (like 888PL Semis) will weight big stacks more; flatter will help medium stacks; Sats don't (extra) reward anything above avg chips, and short stacks can have much more equity than you would think from their stack.

There are also ways in which implications of this can (or should?) affect the play, usually on or around the bubble, but I won't get into that unless anyone really wants it. As Garth says in the other thread... Google

Hope someone gets something out of all this

[Papa Bear]

I debated whether to send most of this as a PM to you benny the cunt, but decided that it might be better to post it so anyone can benefit.

i.e last night there was 17 runners, which means there was a $200 prize pool gtd

this makes 170k in chips.

i had about 29k in chips, which works out to 17.1% of the chips in play.

on full tilt,if the tourney was cancelled i would get 17% of $200, which means it would be $34.11, not $18 as i got on 888.

i am in no way asking for the $100 first prize, just because i was chip leader at the time.

does that make sense?

Yes, but not quite...

Your method of working out tournament equity is a bit simplified.
What you have done is work out your equity (17.1%) in the 1st place payout only.
You need to continue this process (which gets more complicated every place down) down to the lowest place payout.

I will use a 9/10 player SnG (50%/30%/20%) as simple example:

[for those without the background, P(X) simply means the probability of X occuring, and P(Y|X) is the conditional probability of Y, given that X has occured]

Overall your tounament equity (in %) is
P(1st) * .50 + P(2nd) * .30 + P(3rd) * .20
You then just multiply by the actual prizepool amount to get a $ value.

As stated above, P(1st) is simply: your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS.

The rub is in trying to calculate the probability of finishing every place but 1st!
To calulate for 2nd, you need to loop over all the remaining players (other than you)
SUM(over i < N) : P(player_i_1st) * (your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS - player_i_stack)

For 3rd it is even more complicated:
SUM(over i, j < N) : P(player_i_1st) * P(player_j_2nd | player_i_1st) * (your_stack / TOTAL_CHIPS - player_i_stack - player_j_stack)

where N is the number of players, and we skip an iteration if YOU are player i or j...

PHEW!
Luckily there is a very simple recursive algorithm for this, as writing code to calculate this for large MTTs would really suck!

Anyway, this is the heart of ICM - Tournament Equity, and since this was also asked about it a short while back in another thread, I thought I would show exactly how it is calculated (I only went into it very sumarily in that other thread).

So as you can see (if you think of the implications of these formulae), your tournament equity is decided not only by your own stack, but by the exact values of the other stacks, given an equal number of players remaining (eg. extrememly short stacks will increase your eq% if you are chip leader) and by the exact payout structure of the tournament - top heavy structures (like 888PL Semis) will weight big stacks more; flatter will help medium stacks; Sats don't (extra) reward anything above avg chips, and short stacks can have much more equity than you would think from their stack.

There are also ways in which implications of this can (or should?) affect the play, usually on or around the bubble, but I won't get into that unless anyone really wants it. As Garth says in the other thread... Google

Hope someone gets something out of all this

Bugger, thats what I was gonna say !

[bennymacca]

i know chip equity doesnt equal tournament equity - thats the whole theory of ICM

does tilt do it according to ICM or just via chip stacks?

[Larx36]

Who are you to question how someone else plays?

That there be Jmack007 'Lord of the DT rings'

[666HARPS666]

Who are you to question how someone else plays?

That there be Jmack007 'Lord of the DT rings'

Gold right there Dave

[AJG]

i know chip equity doesnt equal tournament equity - thats the whole theory of ICM

does tilt do it according to ICM or just via chip stacks?

I dont really follow you as ICM is using chipstacks?

But any site that chops other than equally to all, should do it via ICM (I know PS does).

I cant see how it would be done using chip equity, as the equity of each chip in your stack is determined by your tournament equity, so the 2 are really different views of the same thing. ??
Unlesss I am defining chip equity differently than you... But I cant ebven think what another may be...


Just have to say it: papabear, given you posted immediatley after me, why quote my whole post? esp long ones make it harder to read threads I think, with lots of quotes...