Previously suspended player permitted to play in 888PL GF

[15GIZMO]

By the way - I thought this player was suspended late last year as well along with the others named by you in this thread. I know this has nothing to do with this season, but it has to do with his history.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

[madali]

Ok just reading through the thread and I still think the player should be allowed to play. I think on a case by case basis management should be able to use there judgment on what a fair punishment should be. I am seeing numerous conflicting stories to the temperament of this player but if Adam believes it was in jest and the punishment already served is sufficient then that is good enough for me.

This whole case seems to be a case of Chinese whispers where the details are being changed constantly. After each game an event report is put in and I think instead of going on a memory of what may have happened lets let management deal solely with the facts which will be contained in those report and make an informed decision.

I am not having a go at anyone but I have played with the players who were suspended last year for online abuse and they are the sweetest people now (except when they take my chips).On the flip side I play with some very strong characters in venue who are extremely vocal and nothing makes me happier than to outplay them and take there chips. I know if the TD heard some of there comments and found them to be inappropriate he would take to proper steps to have the behavior dealt with even though I may not have been offended.
So my vote again is for management to make the final decision and for players to respect this decision.

[Caleb]

Ok just reading through the thread and I still think the player should be allowed to play. I think on a case by case basis management should be able to use there judgment on what a fair punishment should be. I am seeing numerous conflicting stories to the temperament of this player but if Adam believes it was in jest and the punishment already served is sufficient then that is good enough for me.

This whole case seems to be a case of Chinese whispers where the details are being changed constantly. After each game an event report is put in and I think instead of going on a memory of what may have happened lets let management deal solely with the facts which will be contained in those report and make an informed decision.

I am not having a go at anyone but I have played with the players who were suspended last year for online abuse and they are the sweetest people now (except when they take my chips).On the flip side I play with some very strong characters in venue who are extremely vocal and nothing makes me happier than to outplay them and take there chips. I know if the TD heard some of there comments and found them to be inappropriate he would take to proper steps to have the behavior dealt with even though I may not have been offended.
So my vote again is for management to make the final decision and for players to respect this decision.

ZOMG You are awesome.

Especially the bolded parts.

I personally do not have a problem with this person even though his bad language offends me. I have put up with it for many years by him at the poker table.

But what are we to form our opinion from - the Rules?? - or not

Not to split hairs, but by saying you have a problem with his behaviour at the poker table, I assume, the only contact you have with this person, and by having you put up with it for many years, are you really trying to tell us you are completely unbiased towards this situation?

BUT I do not believe that any concessions should be made if a person reoffends. They should be dealt with strictly and the Rules be enforced so as to teach them that they cannot disrepect 888PL staff or the players. Any other decision is just asking for problems with players in the future.

Reoffends? You mean the 2 week suspension from online then the season long suspension for swearing at a mate?

Or the other suspension that management has no record of but you and Harps are sure that exists?

I will go on the record now to say I have given out my fair share of suspensions in my time, I am one of the stricter TCs when it comes to swearing especially. I would absolutely have suspended him in that situation. But I don't see how you can stop a player from playing an event that;

A) Doesn't fall within the suspension time frame.
B) The suspension doesn't cover the whole qualification period for.
C) He hasn't actually qualified for it. He's put up his hard earned to play. (and met the 10 away game criteria)

Rule 8.4, the one you guys have been quoting to backup your opinions, I'm pretty sure (and if I'm wrong I know Garth will correct me quick-smart) that was written before the advent of the GF. i.e. Before the advent of a final that the qualification was more than a whole season.

Prior to this, all SF, FTTs, Regional's ect. had a qualification period of up to a season, but no longer. So the way I understand it, there would never have been a situation like this where a season long suspension can begin and end within the same qualification period.

Not sure if this will make a difference in your eyes guys, you seem more caught up on the fact that he is abusive and not the type of player you want playing more than the rule aspect of it, but there's another little thing for you to think about.

I clearly believe that no matter what is opinionated here, it won't make any difference in the long run. I just hope you don't regret your decision.

You are clearly stating here you think this player will not be able to control himself eventually. You may be right.

But you seem to be letting this control you opinions on the subject.

And the bolded makes no sense. So we shouldn't let him play because of what he might do? Jeez, maybe you shouldn't let me come. I'm not working and might make a fool of myself if I drink too much. That would be worse for 888pl than a player swearing during a game, right?

[Bacon]

And the bolded makes no sense. So we shouldn't let him play because of what he might do? Jeez, maybe you shouldn't let me come. I'm not working and might make a fool of myself if I drink too much. That would be worse for 888pl than a player swearing during a game, right?

Aren't you cat-sitting?

[AJG]

Aside from what Caleb wrote regarding interpretation of this rule 8.4 (which to me clearly reads like it applies to Semis and the like only), from the OP and later posts, Garth has said he already bought his way in directly.... past tense...
FHG can hardly accept the guys buyin, then turn around and say "Sorry, you can't play, here's a cheque for $500", so what exactly is it that is hoped to be acheived from this thread?

Opinions that may affect how a new rule is explicitly written into the 888pl rules?
Just an idea on where the player base stands for managements future reference?

GF is clearly in a class of its own as far as 888pl tourneys go... You cant buy your way into any others, its only run every 2 seasons, and there is a pile of money up for grabs (which as Garth also points out is largely player funded)...

If the suspension has ended, and he's played his 10 games, I cant see any reasonable objections to his playing in it.

Also, this talk of "If he does it at the GF it wont look good for the 888pl"...
What a load of bollocks...
So when some tool gets drunk and abuses a bouncer at a nightclub, it makes the nightclub look bad? Will it make the Caulfield RC (or wherever it is) look bad?
Has ANY player that has EVER been suspended for whatever reason, reflected badly on the league itself...
In any group of people, no matter who, where or why, there will always be bad apples... And when you put lots of money up for competition, and there is a luck factor involved, the chance of this just increases... that and it wouldnt surprise me if people were drinkin at 9.30am like at Semis...
Also, its not exactly a public event, hence no forum in which to make the league look bad.

Even if Caleb did have 2 shandies and ran around drunk making a fool of himself, would that reflect badly on the league ?? How could it?
It only reflects on Caleb... And how alcohol interacts with his medication...
And if this person acts abusively, it only reflects on them...

[Garth Kay]

I am still considering everyone's viewpoints.

[trishan]

I am still considering everyone's viewpoints.

Garth, what is your opinion on the rule? Do you think it applies in this case or not?

[Garth Kay]

I am still considering everyone's viewpoints.

Garth, what is your opinion on the rule? Do you think it applies in this case or not?

At the time the rule was generated it only applied to finals that were attached to a qualifying season.

This rule was never meant to be included for the Grand Final, especially not now that the GF is conducted every 6 months and said 6 months is the qualification period.

If we are going for the hard and fast interpretation of the rule then yes, we have made a mistake in allowing this player to enter and particpate; BUT there are players who are on that list who have been suspended from activity for one or two weeks, some for even one night for very petty crimes (such as being an idiot and attempting to steal an 888PL poster). ANd there is no way people like this should be refused entry into the GF for shenanigans.

The player in question here has history (as do many other players on this forum and in the league) but the considerations were this:

1.) He was suspended for swearing (not abuse of any sort) because he was on probation, he was given a three month suspension for swearing at a mate in jest.
2.) This player is a loyal 888PL player and fully supports this league.
3.) He is in constant contact with me personally and we speak almost daily over his recent poker experiences.
4.) We strongly believe that this player will not abuse or step out of line in anyway at any regular events and especially the Grand Final where he will be under the watchful eye of myself and the rest of my management team.
5.) His past behaviour at the first grand final was exemplary.
6.) He has served a three month suspension, has apologised in full for his actions and has already missed out on one Grand Final and one Semi Final due to his suspension term.

Irrespective of comments like "he abuses everyone daily", "I haven't played with him since his return, but he used to do it" and "i'm worried about what he will do at the GF" the fact remains that we have two entries on his player file - one was for abuse online between him and another player (of which many on this forum now have black marks against there name) and then suspended for SWEARING loudly whilst serving a suspension.

None of the above lead me to believe he is a menace to society or to our players and any other comments about past actions is just hearsay and I will not and cannot accept those comments as character referenced, in good conscience.

The only concern and point I keep coming back to is that allowing him to play does breach the rules as outlined. That is the only thing that does not sit well with me.

[trishan]

It's a pretty tough decision. I myself have swung from letting him play to not letting him play and then back again. Maybe there can be a compromise? Would the people who do not want him to play accept a written apology from the player for his past action and a guarantee of good behaviour for the GF and the future?

After hearing everything I am not so sure what the right thing to do is.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The only concern and point I keep coming back to is that allowing him to play does breach the rules as outlined. That is the only thing that does not sit well with me.

If thats the case then the solution is simple. Tell offending player bad luck, he can play the next one.

Solution only affects one player and no possible inference of impropriety.

CT