Did I play this optimally?

[MattyMoo]

Just wondering if I played this optimally, mathematically or if I should have done more on the turn rather than flat call? This is a $11 1R 1A and I always do my 1R straight away...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t7015)
Hero (Button) (t5775)
SB (t2140)
BB (t7370)
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t6230)
MP1 (t5850)
MP2 (t2450)
MP3 (t6775)

Hero's M: 38.50

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 6
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t250, MP1 calls t250, 2 folds, CO calls t250, Hero calls t250, SB calls t200, 1 fold

Flop: (t1350) 9, 3, A (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1350) 6 (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t500, CO calls t500, Hero calls t500, SB calls t500, UTG+1 calls t500

River: (t3850) 9 (5 players)
SB bets t1390 (All-In), 1 fold, MP1 calls t1390, CO raises to t3300, Hero raises to t5025 (All-In), 1 fold, CO calls t1725

Total pot: t16680

[gmatical]

I'm not sure on the maths but it looks fairly optimal to me.

Hope you won.

[MattyMoo]

Yes I did win with it. Only to then lose 7K of it K's into A's next hand... GRRR

[trishan]

On the turn, with 4 other players, I would probably reraise to get rid of any draws. The only possible hand I see beating you here is [as][9s]. If they had aces then they played it really weird...

[AJG]

I would have raised the turn.
The initalial bettor alone has laid 3.7:1 pot odds, which requires a 21% chance of winning to call... Thats a tad more than a flush draw needs, but as soon as there are callers this improves. ie UTG+1 is getting 6.7:1 on their call, which is almost the right price for a 5 card draw on the turn.

I have been trying to consider this more when sizing bets or raises myself lately. Looking at the board I try to figure (and assume its live) the worst possible draw against me, and bet an amount which only just prices them out, thereby providing them a good opportunity to make a mistake and call.
Although I round this to the nearest 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 of the pot, even pot sometimes (14 outs on the flop need < 1:1). I got hold of a pre-release draft of Bobofitos Bible, which is an absolute goldmine (and apparently sold for over $700!), and he goes into the math here alot. So for example, here there is an obvious flush draw, which is 4.1:1 against completing on the river, so laying say 3.5:1 with my bet they are making a mistake (mathematically) by calling... Obviously exact amounts will vary as at a table of calling-stations I will increase the bets cos I expect they are going to call regardless.

In terms of extracting the most out of a winning hand... You cant do better than to get it allin and have caller(s), which you did

gmat: any hand that beats him, has played this pretty horrible by checking the flop (AA/A9/99)

Edit: Beat me to it Trishan, i was just going into it abit more

[bennymacca]

I agree, raise and try to get it in on the turn. The guy leading out into so many players looks strong and will most likely stack off on the turn anyway.

[gmatical]

Raising the turn, whilst correct in essence, may cost value (forcing out the limpers that stacked off on the river) in the end - or it may not, they all may have come along for the ride or even better shove.

Depends how attached they were to their Ax's i s'pose. Is that what they showed down?

I think, from my point of view, (holding a sneaky set on an A high board against multiple opponents, flush draw on board) if I fade the 9 or so outs to kill my set I will (almost)alway be a big winner as aces stack off lots on non flushing rivers believing they are good.
This line saves us more if the club falls, but doesn't cost us any $ if it bricks (this hand is the perfect example) as it all goes in and as AJG pointed out very few hands are beating us.
Having said that I flip flop between both options 'cos I think they both work well. Fuck my advice is getting sketchy these days

[AJG]

Raising the turn, whilst correct in essence, may cost value (forcing out the limpers that stacked off on the river) in the end - or it may not, they all may have come along for the ride or even better shove.

Isnt this line of thinking precisely what gets people in trouble with slow playing big but beatable hands?

Things all worked out nicely here, but what if the river was the T?

Now we are faced with the possibility of both a flush and straight having completed... With a pot that is ~75% of our remaining stack!

That aside, it is an ideal spot to raise imho, because the turn really doesnt look to have improved you. I doubt anyone is going to realistically put you on 66 because you raise on a turn 6... More likely a PP > 9s, possibly 88/78cc on a semibluff. Lilkewise I doubt anyone would credit you an Ace, as you checked that flop IP behind 4 other players.

2 of them folded on the river anyway, which was always going to happen when no draws complete, (actually a bit surprising that it was only 2) and the players that liked their hand enough to shove/call on the river, probably also liked it enough on the turn to call a raise - except maybe 9X. So I think all you are really doing by raising the turn is getting the hands which can potentially beat you on the river out of the pot (except possibly AXcc, esp with X>9).

At the end of the day, raising drawing hands out of a pot will always potentially cost us value when they do not complete, but better to lose a little value than the whole pot me thinks ??

[maccatak11]

Raising the turn, whilst correct in essence, may cost value

Nope, wouldnt cost you value at all. Nobody will credit you with a set on the turn, so if the leader thinks they are good when they bet the turn, they will probably call the raise as well.

Too many scare cards for only a set against lots of players on heaps of river cards, so raise it up. Even if you take it doen here, you save yourself from a potentially tough river spot.

[gmatical]

Raising the turn, whilst correct in essence, may cost value (forcing out the limpers that stacked off on the river) in the end - or it may not, they all may have come along for the ride or even better shove.

Isnt this line of thinking precisely what gets people in trouble with slow playing big but beatable hands?

Things all worked out nicely here, but what if the river was the T?

Now we are faced with the possibility of both a flush and straight having completed... With a pot that is ~75% of our remaining stack!

That aside, it is an ideal spot to raise imho, because the turn really doesnt look to have improved you. I doubt anyone is going to realistically put you on 66 because you raise on a turn 6... More likely a PP > 9s, possibly 88/78cc on a semibluff. Lilkewise I doubt anyone would credit you an Ace, as you checked that flop IP behind 4 other players.

2 of them folded on the river anyway, which was always going to happen when no draws complete, (actually a bit surprising that it was only 2) and the players that liked their hand enough to shove/call on the river, probably also liked it enough on the turn to call a raise - except maybe 9X. So I think all you are really doing by raising the turn is getting the hands which can potentially beat you on the river out of the pot (except possibly AXcc, esp with X>9).

At the end of the day, raising drawing hands out of a pot will always potentially cost us value when they do not complete, but better to lose a little value than the whole pot me thinks ??

Just to be clear - I was talking about the hand with the benefit of hindsight, based on the actual cards that fell not what may have been.