benny the cunt is officially banned from this section of the forum

[AJG]

A little late to the party, but...

against that range, i have either 7 or 9 outs, which gives me 15-20% equity. this is marginal based on the pot odds, but i thought he was never folding, so i had definite implied odds.

Sorry but... How do you figure you had the implied odds to call?
It was 2150 to call and you only had 4845 left behind? So at 2.25:1 (implied) you need 31% (or ~6500 left @ 20%) to make it a break even call.
Also when counting outs, and you arrive at 2 possibilities (as here - 7 or 9) shouldnt you usually take the smaller of the 2? Although why you thought only 7 I can't figure, 8 perhaps if you considered Trishan held a club?

Also, why did you think the Ace was a good card for you? Ax is a very likely hand for Trishan to float here?
And why is a shove by him more likely a bluff - he stuck in ~ 1/2 effective remaining stacks?

These are serious questions, that if you read benny the cunt, would you answer for me? esp the last one... (shove = bluff)

If only we got something in return for getting it in as favourite apart from self-satisfaction, which let's face it, isn't that great.

You do.... You more often win...

TBH, I don't think either player was particularly brilliant in this hand.
Cant see why Trishan thinks JTs is not an open raising hand from EP??
Can see why he floated flop, as 962r doesnt really hit much of benny the cunt's EP opening range, so its a cbet most of the time (95%+ ?? - 99/66 are only value hands that make sense?) and he has overcards on a very dry flop... Also if small cards come and he can get to showdown without more betting, Ace high might be good?
Trishan played turn too soft, c/r to put benny the cunt allin is better imho (any less, and Ive heard benny the cunt's argument against such sizing - which I 100% agree with - he put almost 1/2 effective remaining stack in)
benny the cunt was right to think he would get paid off if he hit his flush, but wasn't getting the odds to make the turn call...
Trishan makes a 'blocking bet' on the river, and AFAIK these are intended to be folded to raises/jams - esp in these cases where a draw completes. Or possibly a misunderstanding of the term 'thin value bet' ???
Or if as you say benny the cunt, a weak looking bet to induce a raise, WHY Trishan?

IMO: Fold Pre Trishan... ok in this hand you had him dominated, but as Garth previously mentioned you will often be dominated yourself with AJ PLUS you are OOP... But as u didnt, Id have c/r flop not turn...

Also, why is this under 'Advanced Discussion'??

[bennymacca]

Sorry but... How do you figure you had the implied odds to call?
It was 2150 to call and you only had 4845 left behind? So at 2.25:1 (implied) you need 31% (or ~6500 left @ 20%) to make it a break even call.

on the turn, i had to call 2150 into a pot of 8350, giving me immediate pot odds of 25.7%

if trishan has a set then i have 7 outs, if he has a pair of aces i have 9 outs. i think i have 9 outs a lot more than i have 7 in this spot. (i could even have 15 if trishan has 88 or something like that).

i think 9 outs is a good estimate. this gives me 20% roughly, so slightly less than required.


but, if i believe that trishan is 100% going to put his remaining chips in on the river, which i did at the time, then i am essentially having to call 2150 into a probable pot of 8350 + 11840 (double my remaining stack) = 20190. so now you can see we only need 10% equity.

does that make sense?

Also, why did you think the Ace was a good card for you? Ax is a very likely hand for Trishan to float here?

because there are more aces in my open+cbet range than there are in trishans calling range i think - most big aces he 3bets pre, most small aces he folds, only AT-AQ are in his calling range really. but my opening range has a lot more aces, just about every suited ace and A9+, and i cbet them most of the time on a board like that.

And why is a shove by him more likely a bluff - he stuck in ~ 1/2 effective remaining stacks?

because with a min raise, i dont think i am ever folding, so basically it looks like a line designed to get max value. if he shoves he has some fold equity which you would need if you were semibluffing with a draw here. so this made me think he had a made hand, most likely an ace.

benny the cunt was right to think he would get paid off if he hit his flush, but wasn't getting the odds to make the turn call...

you werent including the pot already in the middle when you calculated above.

Trishan makes a 'blocking bet' on the river, and AFAIK these are intended to be folded to raises/jams - esp in these cases where a draw completes. Or possibly a misunderstanding of the term 'thin value bet' ???
Or if as you say benny the cunt, a weak looking bet to induce a raise, WHY Trishan?

pot was too big to put in a blocking bet and go for pot control. if he wanted to do this, then calling turn was the way to pot control it. this is why it looked to me like he wanted me to shove over the top.

Also, why is this under 'Advanced Discussion'??

as soon as you mention the word range, it becomes advanced in this forum at the present time i think.

hope that helps.

[trishan]

Also, why is this under 'Advanced Discussion'??

as soon as you mention the word range, it becomes advanced in this forum at the present time i think.

lol

[AceLosesKing]

He has a point, I'd agree tbh.

[AJG]

if trishan has a set then i have 7 outs, if he has a pair of aces i have 9 outs. i think i have 9 outs a lot more than i have 7 in this spot. (i could even have 15 if trishan has 88 or something like that).

Do u mean because 2 of the clubs boat him up? Because this is only in the specific case of a set of 6s. 99 or 22 in his hand would still give you 8 clubs left yes? assuming he didnt have 1 himself, or is the reduction to 7 outs taking this possibility into consideration? But this gets complicated quickly as even if he doesnt, a 9c (if he has 99 - 2c for 22) crushes you, so you would discount this also yes? (also complicated further by Prob he has 99 or 22?)

but, if i believe that trishan is 100% going to put his remaining chips in on the river, which i did at the time, then i am essentially having to call 2150 into a probable pot of 8350 + 11840 (double my remaining stack) = 20190. so now you can see we only need 10% equity.

Hmmm, I think you are calculating the implied odds incorrectly?
I had thought it was only based on future betting/winnings, in this case you can only win an extra 4850 from Trishan, and the current pot only has relevance in allowing us to calculate the implied odds we need to make a call neutral EV.
As in, the pot is laying you: 3.88:1
Odds of you hitting your flush on the river: 4.1:1
Required impled odds (to make a break even call) => Draw - Pot = 4.1 - 3.88 :1 = 0.22:1 which is pretty small, so even if you think you can just win a 450+ (22% of 2150 or more) river bet it was worth chasing.
But to say you are calling ~2K to win ~20K isn't correct I dont think. You still need to bet the other 5K(ish), so its more like 7K total wagered to win 20K which is ~26%. Or is it my thinking that is flawed here?
It just seems the way you worked it out above, if we think we will be paid off, we are much more often getting implied odds to chase??
Extending the above for calculating implied odds to other common situations, lets say after flop pot is $20 opponent 1/2 pots the turn and we have OESD, so pot is giving 3:1 and draw is 4.8:1 => Req implied odds = 1.8:1 or ~2:1, so needing to call $10 on the turn we also need to be able to extract another ~$20+ on the river when we hit to justify the call (even though it is break even - which is something else I have been thinking about, see below **)
[Note: I clearly dont do this at the table all the time -esp online- but usually just think "OK so I need approx Z:1 extra to make up for the pot odds defecit, except preflop obv]

So because the pot was almost offering you the right price, you hardly needed any implied odds anyway, having thought more about it (and after all that in previous post)

On a side note to this, flushes usually have worse implied odds than hands like straights and sets, so how could you be 100% sure Trishan would call your jam? (although you only needed to call his river bet to make it a +EV call - but more is always better) - because it was a backdoor flush?

** Lately I have been thinking about how poker players say things like "You have X:1 chance to hit your draw, so you need X:1 pot odds to call" (lets say the call is allin so no implied to simplify), but really that is the case to make a break-even call... They should (imho) be saying "So you need better than X:1 from the pot", otherwise there is actually no profit (in the long term) if pot odds == draw odds, or is this flawed thinking?

because there are more aces in my open+cbet range than there are in trishans calling range i think

TBH Id have thought the opposite, especially given he was OOP (worst position possible) this hand. I'd probably give him a 'call EP open' range (from OOP) of {TT+, ATs, AJo+} so 58 of the 82 hands include an Ace. perhaps a few more, but not many actual hands - maybe 12 more going down to 88 and 4 more with KQs? so even then 58 of 98
Or think of it like this: JTs is clearly in your EP open raising range, but i doubt it is in his OOP calling range ?? Yes? No?
What range did you give him?
Do you really have a 'cbet range'?
I thought cbet frequency should be based on flop texture and the chances it hit opponents range, and opponents postflop tendancies (station, fit or fold etc)...

Yes I agree about pot control on the river, I was asking why trishan would want a shove raise given his hand and the flush completed. Silly to completely discount it as your drawing hand... 1K river lead smells more like a misunderstanding of 'thin value' to me... or maybe he didnt think you would stack off there? As you said previously benny the cunt, a chk is more likely to get you betting more, so the 1K river bet is a complete mystery to me...

And I get what you are saying about range being mentioned making it under 'Advanced' (can u see a time when it wouldnt?), just that OP didnt mention anything about ranges. Better suited to the Vent thread

[trishan]

FWIW this was in the the "Hand Discussion" forum before Advanced Discussion was created and it moved to Advanced Discussion after it was created.

[bennymacca]

But to say you are calling ~2K to win ~20K isn't correct I dont think. You still need to bet the other 5K(ish), so its more like 7K total wagered to win 20K which is ~26%. Or is it my thinking that is flawed here?

you are right, i am making the (possibly big) assumption that he always stacks off on the river.

i dont think i should have included my remaining stack in the calculations either.

it should be (amount to call) * (percentage he stacks off) / (amount i can win)

Or think of it like this: JTs is clearly in your EP open raising range, but i doubt it is in his OOP calling range ?? Yes? No?

this is true, but at this stage i am probably raising all suited aces, A6+ and A7o+ as well as all of the other hands like suited connectors.

i dont think your range of ATo AJs+ for aces is correct for trishan, because he 3bets a ton of those hands. so unless he is being tricky i think you can narrow it down to exactly AT and AJ most of the time.

Better suited to the Vent thread

it started off this way and turned into a relatively ok strat thread. and yeah, it was moved to the advanced discussion after the fact, because i felt like it.