Crown Cash Conundrum

[JMACK007]

Everyone thought I was joking when I said this....

It's a cash game at Crown.....you are up against bottom pair.......

I was SERIOUS!!!! Those guys are crazy!!

[muzzington]

I'd like to say a genuine thank you for reminding me why I never read this section

So say we all.

[gmatical]

BB (Me) $150ish
MP (old guy) $200ish
Button (knew what he was doing, but fairly standard player) $41

MP limps $2
Button raises to $6
SB folds
I raise to $12 (not even noticing the Button Raise, was excited about my KK (black) dealt to me
MP calls $12
Button shoves his remaining $35
I call
MP calls

Pot $124

FLOP

A 8 4

Me Check
MP Bet $24

Me ?????????

Can't remember the suits, rainbow flop tho.

As has been stated before shoving on the flop to isolate seems like the best move.

Going from the flop, why not fire out a 60 - 80 odd cbet to find out where you stand. By checking he can do anything and it limits your entire options because you really have no information here to go off. You can gamble off by shoving and praying that he has no ace, or you can fold and find a better spot with 115 left in your stack and go over what you could have done better.

If you raise to 72-100 odd, you are effectively committing your stack. Once again praying to the poker gods that he has no ace which from the impression you mentioned that he was showing down the goods seems unlikely or that one of 2 outs hit. If you min raise and he shoves, do you fold and have 80 left behind and find another spot meanwhile going on mental tilt because he rolls over 57suited?

Playing passive at 1/2 will always cost you money. You let in the dodgy kind of hands that people like to play or the old 7 2 philosophy kicks in, or the i need to see a flop kind of player gets a look in. By playing a little more agressive you can easily get more money into the pot and make your post flop decisions a lot easier.

Thanks Brett, my only regret from this hand is not taking the C-bet option, or at least check calling. My flop check was made to give him an option to check it down and showdown my KK cheap with the scary A, an option I thought he would go for (being old and all ).

Whilst the shove pre with KK is the easiest option, I did exactly this about 5 hands earlier with QQ (to which Paul Bell-Inskip can attest) against a smallish stack ($30ish) all in. It forced 3 others out of the pot, and I feel I lost value, and took it down vs 99.

I think him calling the $41 rules out hands like 5,7 etc, he wasn't wild like that, but I get your point.

Anyhow, to all those that think i am being defensive, I wanted to hear about POST FLOP options, so was frustrated by the pre-flop advice. Then Krunchie said something retarded and I can't let stuff like that slide.

And a comment on the comments such as 'you should never find yourself in this spot etc..', consider this. What if my re-raise of the $6 was huge, $41 or so, and they both just called, would I not be in the exact same situation through more sensible pre-flop action?
Keep on keeping on!

[bennymacca]

Anyhow, to all those that think i am being defensive, I wanted to hear about POST FLOP options, so was frustrated by the pre-flop advice. Then Krunchie said something retarded and I can't let stuff like that slide.

you are obviously blind so i have quoted every comment on the FIRST PAGE where people have commented about your play as played.

FFS


fwiw krunchie has said nothing retarded, he is just commenting on how badly you have played the hand, which, to be frank, is about as badly as one could ever play kings (save for folding pre). and then you saying that noone commented about postflop is nothing short of ignorant. this is the first page by the way, doesn't include bretty or gayle or others.

You fold the flop as played. What's he betting with that you can beat?

as played its a fold

on the flop, you are basically never good.

as played its probably a foldandwonderwhythehelliplayeditsobadlyinthefirstplace type of hand

[krunchie]

And a comment on the comments such as 'you should never find yourself in this spot etc..', consider this. What if my re-raise of the $6 was huge, $41 or so, and they both just called, would I not be in the exact same situation through more sensible pre-flop action?
Keep on keeping on!

its not the same situation, far from it

yes your still facing the same amount of players on the flop, but now you have a hell of a lot more information from these players calling your large raise than the way you played it originally, and more importanly you have taken the inititive away from your oponents, where originally you gave it too your opponent.

now we can truly narow our opponents range, unfortunalty there range in this situation smacks the flop in the face, and you will probably have to fold.

results orientated thinkers will say we still lost and this way i lost more money, but given the same situation enough times playing it our way will make more money in the longterm than your way, that ace inst always going to hit so there you will be with kk a pot worth $100 against their naked aces and you thinking " show me the money"

[gmatical]

Very selective quoting benny the cunt, you conveniently ignored the 4 comments that address the pre-flop action and don't pass any comment on what they would do post flop (which included one of your own) - at which point I politely posted I would like to hear post flop thoughts, and then the answers dribbled in.

Am i still ignorant?

And Krunchie did say something retarded, but then writes a post that has merit (although i disagree with it in parts) that we all could have bounced around a little without the bull5hit. But i'm a bit over this.

Last longer in tonights PLO anyone? $10?

[krunchie]

i will admit that i was drinking pretty heavily the other night, but i make no excuses, and i make no appologies

the main problem is gmat that you are very selective in your posts as well, you ask for very specific advice that most of us are reluctant to give because the situation wouldnt exist if we played earlier streets different.

lets just get back to some proper stratery talk or drop it completely

lets start with what about my last post you dissagreed with, im hapy to discuss

[gmatical]

Well.............. I hope you are not drinking to heavily tonight..... as I am happy to discuss it a bit - but please lets be more 'agree to disagree' if we differ.

I don't think the ranges differ in my example (flat calling) or by re-raising and getting 2 callers. If the callers flat called my $12, sure - i would expect the ranges to be wider - but calling the extra $29 means 78 suited or even J10suited etc are giving up (in most cases).

The all in element may widen the calling range a fraction, but I still dont think this guy ever shows up without something that is at least a decent chance at taking it down.

In either situation I could have continued the aggression (that would look strong as I was first to act) regardless of whether I called or raised pre.

I still think you can give advice/opinion/thoughts on a hand even if you would not have played it in the manner that the original poster did. I ask for specifics as I have already considered the shove, decided against it, then arrive in a tricky position, make a decision and then wonder if it would be the play my peers would make or not make and hear their thoughts behind it.

I dont really know how you determined that your way would win you more money in the long run, but when I am at crown for 2 hours whilst my mother-in-law looks after our daughter, Im not really thinking of the long run

[BigPete33]

Sorry gmat but with the utmost respect "you must be joking".

If you're prepared to ask for advice (which is in itself a LOT more than most players are prepared to do, so congrats) then you must also be prepared to accept the feedback.

I can see how you would think along the lines of "but I wanted post flop advice" but if the overwhelming consensus is "wtf were you thinking pre-flop" you MUST take that on-board or risk looking a fool.

I meant that in the nicest possible way, so please take it as it's intended.


Maybe a simplified way of giving you post flop advice would be to say "I just would not have put myself in that position to start with". Logical response to that would be along the lines of "oh, ok. Please tell me what should have been different?" and then a reasonable discussion happens where hopefully people learn something.


What the guys mean by "in the long run" is more to do with stuff like "do it this way x thousand number of times and you'll be way more in front than if you did it the way you originally suggested" which is very much what you need to be aware of. This is also what they mean by not being results oriented. Stuff happens and hands will be lost, and it will def happen at the worst possible moment too, just to rub it in. That doesn't mean the approach was wrong, it means you did the right thing and were just unlucky that particular time. Hope that makes sense.

[madali]

Given that you still have one live player after the betting pre flop and you do have a monster I suppose that you could continuation bet on the flop to see where you are at which is one option I may choose. Given the size of the pot though any bet needs half decent. The problem is that if he calls then the decision is worse on the turn unless a king comes. Also you would need to make sure the bet was not too big as you would hate have put yourself in a position that you really have to call if he shoves. Alternatively you could flat call and reassess on the turn but again you are stuck in a horrible position if you miss on the turn and he shoves.

In the end I think I check if I think he may have the ace and fold when he bets kicking myself for not shoving pre flop. If he is really a fish and has hit the ace no matter what you do nothing is going to get him to fold.