Crown Cash Conundrum

[madali]

Ok so this thread would have to be the most heated I have ever read on here and also one of the most bizarre. I would hate to see it if we posted the hand history of a whole tournament. We are have had some really good comments but then we have had some that are just below the belt. I mean to suggest that the majority of players are terrible are you for real. There are so many players that I respect both here and in the league in general and who I consider to be quite decent players. Maybe if you suggested we had a lot of average players then I would agree. Sure they may not play a lot of hands the same way as me but that does not make them terrible far from it. And if I am only going to base my reads on how I would play a hand I am going to be a loosing player for a very long time.

So here is my final word for this post. We are very lucky to have this forum and access to so many wonderful players who can offer differing opinions and for the most part have excellent poker knowledge. We are lucky to belong to such a wonderful league who provides us with so many opportunities to win good amounts of money for very little money ( In the semi, regional and grand finals). We are lucky to be able to play against such a wide range of people and play a game we love on a regular basis in a live format. As for the learning, Pete is right , if this thread is anything to go by it would be difficult. It has been suggested a discussion group or even mentors but I do not see it happening too soon. But if you really do want to learn, put yourself out there, ask for advice and be ready to get an honest response. Take on board all of the opinions and do not discard them without giving them proper thought. Read other posts and get involved put your ideas on the situation in and if you get shot down don't take it to heart but really read what is being said as you may learn something. Poker is no place for those who are too sensitive. If you are you will find yourself on tilt for the rest of your life.

[bennymacca]

this thread is pretty much the exact reason why i didn't follow through with my idea of creating a study group.

[BigPete33]

Hey madali, question for you if I may.

You've said that you respect players in the league, and that's a good thing in my opinion. You've also said you think they're decent players.

What I'd like to ask is how do you equate them being good in 888PL to being good in general?

Is it because 888PL is "the world" and that's really the only point of reference available at this point in time? Or is it because you think their game would stack up pretty much anywhere?

If I was asked about several different known/popular players and if they were any good I'd propably have to give two answers.

Answer A) in 888PL they're doing very well and are continuously performing better than their peers.

Answer B) If you took them outside of 888PL they still have an awful lot to learn and are clearly very green and they need to realise this themselves before they'll go anywhere.


So from the above, I both agree with you and absolutely disagree with you all at once The vast majority of 888PL players very much have a stinky game! To keep that in perspective - they're playing pub poker, not some sort of world poker tour, so it's not like they're failing to meet expectations.

What does tend to happen though, and this is what ticks people off, is that they forget where they are and believe themselves to be better than what the facts dictate. This is why players (such as Garth or similar) have either never bothered to talk strategy or have stopped doing so.

[madali]

Hey madali, question for you if I may.

You've said that you respect players in the league, and that's a good thing in my opinion. You've also said you think they're decent players.

What I'd like to ask is how do you equate them being good in 888PL to being good in general?

Is it because 888PL is "the world" and that's really the only point of reference available at this point in time? Or is it because you think their game would stack up pretty much anywhere?

If I was asked about several different known/popular players and if they were any good I'd propably have to give two answers.

Answer A) in 888PL they're doing very well and are continuously performing better than their peers.

Answer B) If you took them outside of 888PL they still have an awful lot to learn and are clearly very green and they need to realise this themselves before they'll go anywhere.


So from the above, I both agree with you and absolutely disagree with you all at once The vast majority of 888PL players very much have a stinky game! To keep that in perspective - they're playing pub poker, not some sort of world poker tour, so it's not like they're failing to meet expectations.

What does tend to happen though, and this is what ticks people off, is that they forget where they are and believe themselves to be better than what the facts dictate. This is why players (such as Garth or similar) have either never bothered to talk strategy or have stopped doing so.

Ok I will answer this in full a little later as currently playing rush but just to be clear I am not stating that a large percentage of players are great players but instead that we would have a large percentage that would be considered average in the poker world. When I have put my opinion up more than happy for anyone to shot down any holes in my post when I post it as hey I am just a little old lady sitting at her computer who is an average player wanting to get better and this forum , the people on it and 888 is allowing me to do that.

[madali]

So here is my post and again discussion welcomed. It is only the start I will come back and add later so in the interim would love feedback.

My experience in live poker is slim so my references here will be small. I am not a ring game player really so that also will be slim and I am strictly referring to tournament poker.

So firstly we need to define what is terrible. Is it that they have no idea of the basics or Is it that they do not understand odds and probability? What does a player do that makes you say " Well they are just terrible?" How many players would you consider as terrible that you play in venue? Is that higher online? Is your definition of a terrible player someone who thinks they are much better than they are? Does this make them terrible or just average to good and conceited? With the online players would they be considered bad compared to most of the players say for example at full tilt or poker stars? With the live players are you comparing them to something like APL or poker pros from a casino? Are we saying that terrible players are common amongst 888pl players or put poker in general?

Sorry for all of the questions I just want to get a bench mark to what is considered terrible as you have labeled most players as being terrible . I am not talking about a player playing one hand badly as this in my mind does not equate to them being a terrible player. I agree that the majority of players may not be able to sit at the WSOP and run deep based only on there ability but in the poker community as a whole ( poker players world wide) I would say this would be fair to say of most poker players. So this would indicate majority of players in the league would be considered at least average. Now look around at the players who you play with are there people who you think would have the ability to play decently at the WSOP? I know in my area I could think of quite a few, not a huge amount but still enough to count. The players I play online I have enough marked as being good players that there would be a quite a few there also. I am not basing this on what I see them write on here or the things they say to me live but seeing them play. This is the same in any tournament I play. Quite often at full tilt I will sit at a table with a guy with an FTOPS jersey and while it gives me an indication that they are good until I have seen them play for a while I am making no final judgment. They might just be average and got super lucky one day.


As I said I will be back to finish this later. Busy demolishing my bankroll with terrible play Come on poker gods one time today don't let them suck out.

[madali]

ok so on break so here we go again:

Pete I fully agree with you that some players who think they are great has a game that really stinks. Others while they are generally good players will not progress unless they continue to learn and work on there game. Poker is a game which is growing in popularity every day and with the amount of books, learning sites, on line forums etc etc available if you are not willing to change and find the most +EV way to play a hand you will get left behind. I am sure there are a lot of old professional players in the poker world who have found themselves in this very position. Of course this does not mean that these players are not good players far from it what I am saying is they could be better. I am not referring to anyone in this comment so please do not assume I am.

Pete I think that is about it. As stated earlier my thoughts are not that 888pl is primarily made up of great players ( thank god for that or i would never win a game) but just that instead of being terrible they are on the whole average. I know that in the questions you asked you were referring to just a couple of players but earlier you mentioned 888pl players in general were horrible and that is what I have dealt with primarily.With the handful you are suggesting who are great at 888pl but who you think may struggle else where I think they may surprise you as I think they would soon adapt. Never underestimate the determination of some players to destroy all in its path.

[BigPete33]

Thanks for taking the time to reply madali, and for being more long winded than me so I don't look so bad

When you asked "what's considered terrible?" that's kind of what I was getting at when I asked "what leads you to think they're decent?" and what is your point of reference.

If we limit the convo to 888PL only you'd probably be surprised how much I agree with you here. But we simply can't do that. If we were to discuss poker theory/tactics with 888PL as our sole reference it may well be limited to "be sure to chase that flush all the way no matter the odds" (ok slight exaggeration but you can see what I'm getting at).

One point I'll most definitely agree with you on is IF some of the better players we have made the effort to learn and improve themselves they certainly could end up having a red hot crack at some much bigger tourneys and yes they certainly could adapt. We likely have differing views on just how close they are to that at this point in time but I have absolutely no problem with that theory.

If we took a step back and had a look at this current point in time versus when pub poker first started then it's fair to say there's a lot of people who have improved a lot and now have some idea compared to no idea at all (self included.) That's merely a baby step though. There's still walking and talking to find out about, then childhood life, and so on. You'll also find there's a bucket load of people who just haven't learned a damn thing, even after considerable exposure to the game, and this is what leaves me sometimes just scratching my head and saying "wtf?" as I'm heading to the bar to have a sook

[madali]

Thanks for taking the time to reply madali, and for being more long winded than me so I don't look so bad

Anytime Pete happy to help out


You are right we are not that far apart with our opinions and take away the terrible players comment and they are pretty close.

You'll also find there's a bucket load of people who just haven't learned a damn thing, even after considerable exposure to the game, and this is what leaves me sometimes just scratching my head and saying "wtf?" as I'm heading to the bar to have a sook

maybe not a bucket load but glad I am not the only one that gets this feeling. I don't drink but is almost enough to make me start Currently getting smashed every where I look at the moment with my poker and really taking a long hard look at what I do that is causing it. Majority is just bad luck mixed with some bad play on my part. Perhaps it is variance catching up with me. I know that the last couple of months I have been trying to fix it but maybe I just have to sit back and ride it out. Happy to be average but terrible now that is another thing
Hope to catch up with you one day at the tables

[BigPete33]

a tip for when you start drinking, Carlsberg makes everything better

I'll give you a shout next time I'm over in VIC, probably won't be until the next GF (assuming it's still over there), always happy to have a beer/chat.