For Jav1000

[gmatical]

I <3 Jo

[apachetear]

wowwee great response to your blog jo all ile say is i hope every one who commented play in thursdays deepstack it will make for a great game i no i will play .

[JMACK007]

wowwee great response to your blog jo all ile say is i hope every one who commented play in thursdays deepstack it will make for a great game i no i will play .

Now this I like!!!

[AceLosesKing]

I wish you were as nitty with your use of ellipses as you are with your use of A7.

MARRY ME

[falcongt_au]

Can the hand be replayed in the same tourney....no
Will the result change ....no
Good advice - The only thing you get from looking back is a sore neck.

[gmatical]

Can the hand be replayed in the same tourney....no
Will the result change ....no
Good advice - The only thing you get from looking back is a sore neck.

Old mate falcongt! Did that bloke ever get his $100 from that debacle you posted about a while ago?

[Patrick_Dillon]

Wow where to begin?

What an insane thread.

I was going to reply to alot of posts but instead I'll try and cram my 2 cents into 1 reply.

Apologies if I miss any.

First off by no means is this a he's right your wrong type post, more what I've learned from reading alot of books on poker, watching alot of poker and asking these types of questions to winning/ better than me players.

I can see the point Jo is making in regard to his how he played the hand but as a player who has probably the tightest if not the luckiest image in 888 I can tell a few home truths.

4 handed with less than 10bb's there is very few hands that you should not be shoving from any position nevermind from the SB. Once your talk about 5/6/7/8 its not even a discussion. Add in to the equation that in this instance the BB (JO) is folding to shoves it makes it an even more obvious shove from the SB.

The stop go routine with the stacksizes is bizarre as there is no spot Jo should be calling a 2.3x raise to fold 3bb after flop. Jav should simply be going all in. The 'I tried to rep a big hand' thinking just should never come into it when a player has 5.5bb. You have K high your chips should be in the middle the millisecond the button folds.

Now onto Jo.

A7 4 handed is akin to AKs in a full table. And againts a SB who has been shoving against you and you know from previous history can be shoving any 2 should be a double fist pump snap reshove.Simply put you crush the majority of his range. Hell if your talking optimal poker (and that is what we all strive for) A7 4 handed crushes most shoves from any spot.

I'm not going to go into the maths of why you should be shoving or folding as quite simply every single poker book/site/tutorial/blog/professional player in the world will say its a shove spot. I wouldn't even say its a shove or fold as that would illude to folding being an option in this spot. It simply isn't. It's all in everytime and if that's the only lesson everyone learns from this thread then it will be worth it.

I'm sorry but 4 handed blind vs blind with less than 10BB is always ALWAYS an all in pre.

Now Jo you talk about wanting to see a flop? Well take it from someone who gets short more than most once you get to 15bb or less you pretty much give up the option of 'getting to see a flop'. That is a luxury of the 20bb + club. With your stack 15bb or less (definately in the case of 5.5bb, your looking for any spot where you are ahead more often than not or even a spot where you may not be but the pot odds dictate you take a stand to try and win the tournament) You simply have to get your chips in pre with an edge and hope it holds. And for the times it doesn't just have to sleep easy knowing that over time if you make the correct play the variance will even itself out and you will come out ahead.

I'm all for 'not playing by the book' as you say it when you are deep, but when you get as short as 5.5bb not playing by the book is akin to driving through a red light. It's simply wrong. You have to have to learn that in spots like this blind vs blind a good player will be shoving any 2 against you as they know weak players will fold alot of hands. For instand you'd prob have folded k6.

And this isn't me having a go or the old 'In My Opinion'. If you post this hand in any forum in the world, ask any winning pro, any coach they will all say what benny the cunt has been saying in this thread. And the bottom line is we learn from those who are better than we are. I know that's how I learned.

You play to practice your skills but if you haven't learned the skills or worse are learning the wrong one's then putting in the playing hours will just be a waste of time. You need to practice an optimal style and that sometimes means playing out of your comfort zone.

Garth has asked people to show the maths to back it up but I would say its much better to read a couple of books on the subject to get a wider view of why you should be shoving and never ever calling in this spot. That will you won't just focus on the individual hands but on your overall game.

The Little green book by Phil Gordon is a very good start.

Now having said all of the above nobody is perfect and we all do the wrong thing at times, but if you can't hold your hand up and say ok I can see I did the wrong thing you'll never improve. I myself have seen a major improvement in my results after taking on board alot advice from my peers regarding shoving ranges and spots where you have take the edge even if its marginal. The likes of Garth, Kahle, Chris, Glyn have given me a different view point on how people see the game and spots I can exploit and I know for a fact I would not have had the results I've had in the last 6 months without taking the advice on board instead of digging my heels in and saying, well I see your point but I don't agree.

Finally someone commented that Jav should fold as you have earned the respect of players with your results but that is simply nieve thinking.

It doesn't matter if its Phil Ivey on your left, if you are in the SB with 8BB and you have K high it should be going in everytime, personally respect or friendship should never come into it.

Finally your 56s or 45s is fine if your deep but I calling a 3 bet out of position in any tournament is ill advised unless you have a strong edge against the opponent post flop. You simply can look for better spots.

I don't post very often on here but as someone I respect greatly and admire alot this was one thread I felt I had to post in. This is a massive leak and one you need to remove to make that next jump up.

And please take this in the way it was meant. As a friend trying to help you improve as its very very rare I help anyone with leaks as at the end of the day I want to beat them and every leak they have is advantagous to me.

[maccatak11]

Best. Post. Ever.

Awesome read pat, and was basically everything that I and others were trying to say, but much more eloquent

[JMACK007]

Pat,

I respect you and your opinion not only as a great poker player, but a really good mate, and thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

As I have said earlier, I know the rules regarding SS play. Those that play with me consistently would know this and might even back me up.

I have stated why I did what I did, and also alluded to the fact that I had other things going on, and that my play was not optimal in that tourney. I don't really know what else I can say?

I must admit that I am now angry at this thread. Thanks Jav for posting a hand that has got even one of my good mates doubting my play and knowlege of the game, you're a class act....

[bennymacca]

So Jo, If this spot ever came up again, would you ever just flat? Even sometimes?