Showing cards to win a pot when everyone folds

[Brett Kay]

Can someone give me their interpretation to this one:
Rule is if your hand is shown before a betting round is complete then that is a mucked hand.

However i was playing on a table just recently:

2 players were involved up to the river:
Player 1 goes all in. Player 2 umms and ahhs then turns over his hand, AK or whatever, shows everyone his tough decision, being a bit arrogant, then decides to fold.
Is this allowed?

Poor form on players 2 part. I had this happen at a final table i was dealing. Player A all in preflop, Player B all in on River. Player C saying i know this is valid, turns over his cards.

Now the simple fact is by doing this, he is trying to get a read off player B for the side pot (considerably Large). In this instance i declared his hand dead. On which we continued to argue over the merits of him exposing his hand.

His main point, was that there was no actions left in the hand. Off which i pointed out there was, your action, either call or fold. By showing his cards and trying to get a read of player B he was therefore trying to get that unfair advantage.

I still stand by this decision and would do it again. I hate angle shooters.

As for your example. the AK should have been declared dead and folded.

Most times the simple ruling, by exposing your hand, you are A, trying to show that you have a super strong hand, which will stop everyone else betting.

Or B Showing everyone you have crap and to keep betting.

Or C Trying to not let anyone else play the hand.

Each situation someone is taking value from another person. Player A yourself, therefore no betting, no extra chips, Or if you are all in, then you are stopping someone else from winning the extra chips or creating a side pot

Situation B is letting people betting to win the side and now the main pot, therefore setting up situations where the extra money in the main pot is a factor for the side pot. So screwing over the person with the two pairs, and giving better value to the flush chasers.

Situation C is basically screwing yourself. By showing a strong and all you are going to do is pick up the blinds. Inherently your losing EV in this situation where you could be picking up vital chips.

[AceLosesKing]

Can someone give me their interpretation to this one:
Rule is if your hand is shown before a betting round is complete then that is a mucked hand.

However i was playing on a table just recently:

2 players were involved up to the river:
Player 1 goes all in. Player 2 umms and ahhs then turns over his hand, AK or whatever, shows everyone his tough decision, being a bit arrogant, then decides to fold.
Is this allowed?

That one's a bit iffy. If both cards were turned over I think its a muck - but if player 1 had shown his cards first, player 2 can use that information and still bet/check if he wishes - its as if the hand is live, just that player 2 can see what player 1 is holding, now.

But player 2 showing his cards, I'm not sure. I think its a muck, but you'll have to get clarification from Garth or someone more knowledgeable on poker

If he showed his cards, and THEN decided to fold (ie: he thought showing his cards before acting was legit) that's a muck, yes?

Edit: Yay for Brett!

[Garth Kay]

Brett is slightly wrong in his general case.
In this circumstance then yes I would declare the hand dead, but most TD's won't as their is a general rule that an exposed hand stays in play, with information distributed to all other players.

What I must stress is that a penalty, or at least a warning, should be issued to the player who exposed their hand, no matter if it was an accident or not. As you can see the general rule is: a hand exposed before the completion of the hand is still live and in play. BUT in the fairness of the game, this rule can be overturned dependent on the TD's assessment of the situation.

Are we clear?? I think I just made things murkier.

[rcon]

Poor form on players 2 part. I had this happen at a final table i was dealing. Player A all in preflop, Player B all in on River. Player C saying i know this is valid, turns over his cards.

Now the simple fact is by doing this, he is trying to get a read off player B for the side pot (considerably Large). In this instance i declared his hand dead. On which we continued to argue over the merits of him exposing his hand.

His main point, was that there was no actions left in the hand. Off which i pointed out there was, your action, either call or fold. By showing his cards and trying to get a read of player B he was therefore trying to get that unfair advantage.

I still stand by this decision and would do it again. I hate angle shooters.

Is verbally declaring what your hand is considered such poor form too? I have done this on a few occasions, and had just considered it part of the game?

After all, I could be lying (and often have been)

[Ross Williams]

I had a similar situaion early in the week. Player 1 all in - side pot action between player 2 and 3. After the River, player 2 then moves all and then exposes 1 card on purpose. I gave the player a warning, and ruled the hand live. Player 3 called and won the pot based on the card shown by player 2. Silly move on player 2's part.

[Garth Kay]

Rcon,
If at any time you disclose the true contents of your hand, your hand will be ruled dead and all rights to the pot forfeited. Lie about the contents of your hand but never tell the truth.

You can say you have the straight, but you can never say I have 8 9 of hearts and I just turned the straight.

You will generally be given a penalty as well.

[rcon]

Whoops.

The specific example was last year at the Hackney. I had a J high flush and was chasing points - everyone else had gone to the break and I was agonizing over the all-in call. He has asked me what was taking so long, I said I've got a flush, but it isn't that strong.

I saw his eyes flash and I made the call. His trip 10s were gone.

borderline I'm gathering?


Another example is "I've hit that board, you?"

[AceLosesKing]

Whoops.

The specific example was last year at the Hackney. I had a J high flush and was chasing points - everyone else had gone to the break and I was agonizing over the all-in call. He has asked me what was taking so long, I said I've got a flush, but it isn't that strong.

I saw his eyes flash and I made the call. His trip 10s were gone.

borderline I'm gathering?


Another example is "I've hit that board, you?"

Borderline, I'd say. Not completely out ruled, but its not like you said "I have the J of hearts for the J high flush." If there is a flush draw on the board, he should already know that there's a possibility of you holding the flush. And I doubt you revealed your hand on purpose, to get information from the other player.

Plus, there was only one more runner left in the hand. AND, its not like he asked you what you had. His fault he gave a tell.

If I was asked if I'd hit the board I'd just reply with "maybe."

[BigPete33]

That's very interesting Matthew....

Without checking the rule, I'd personally be ok with a player who is the last person to act for the hand (eg: UTG has gone allin and it's folded around to the BB) verbalising why they are agonising over their decision. It's not giving anyone else an advantage for that hand as there's no more action to follow other than their own. Not to mention, they could also be (and probably are) completely full of it.

A player/spectator saying 'yeah I'd play that' however, makes me want to bust heads.

[Nevah play JJ]

This is a really good topic!
Well for me anyway because I am someone that shows cards.
But unfortunately it is more a compulsion to do this, rather than a boasting or bluffing rights.

But having said that I am getting better at not showing. (Thanks Pete - )

Anyway, I have a really long question....

I was in a hand where all the other players at the table folded apart from 2 friends. (I know there is no such thing as friends at a table, but again I am working on that).

I flopped the straight flush, Friend 1 bets, Friend 2 calls, I agonise and call.
Turn card, F1 Bets, F2 Calls but at this stage I am really starting to get upset, because I know I have the nuts.
River card F1 Bets and I am looking at trying to not get them to bet but check. So I go all in over the top. F1 wants to bet me also, but by now I am just so uptight I turn my cards over for them to see what I have.

He had a flush, but I did have him by miles and he would have called thus knocking him out.

My question is...

Is that considered a muck?

Apart from the fact I do know this is extremely bad poker etiquette (so please don't yell at me for that.. lol), I admit my anxiety over rode my common sense.

But to a degree I thought I was just exposing my hand so he would know what he was betting into.

It was the one and only time I have ever played like this, but still, it would be good to know if it was an exposed hand or a mucked one.