POKER BOOKS

[Todd Rivers]

Mmmm....Ian has only 16 wins. Thought he said 20 the other day but 16 is correct.

OK, when you're finished hand-cranking Macca, we'll look at ur stats.

Mmmmm........lot of wins there (just kidding, you'll win 1 soon)

I have always rated Macca as good as Ian, but Ian plays against all sorts at all venues and has maintained his consistency with everyone gunning for him season after season.

Macca would have played 70% (minimum at a guess) at the same venue against the same-ish players every week.

So i'd like to see his stats after another 200 games against all the other players Ian faces. Like, how many times do you guys play against Trevor Swanbury, Reece Smith, Adam Dunstan and Tim Bredl? Every game in Ian's case.

This discussion could go back and forth over and over and its not gonna change my opinion or yours and I'm tired and grumpy1

So big fat raspberries to you both!

[maccatak11]

6 games at cobby against all those players. 6 final tables lol
FT last two regional finals

[Todd Rivers]

Like i said........raspberries!

[Todd Rivers]

By the way.....Ians dad's bigger than ur dad!

[krunchie]

ahhh come now toddy there is no need to get personal

this thread was never about me and my results.

Everyone is entitiled to an opinion we were just discussing the validity of yours.

lots of fun though

[gundog]

This sounds as though its got into a pi$$ing competition or who's got the biggest one.

From where I sit having played both players often, who would I rather play at final table well lets look at the 2 opponents from my perspective.

Macca thinks and calculates hands and opponents very well.

Ian has a lot of luck and bets hard and bluffs often.

Based on my experiance I would prefer to play Ian for all the bananas, because I can get a better read on him than Macca.

The last 2 seasons my results have been poor, I was acheiving better results when I was playiing 4 to 5 games a week compared to only 2 a week lately, based on the laws of proberability the more you play the more chances of winning.

You can bring out all the stats you want but the spoiler is Waikerie, it can be said that Waikerie is the hardest venue to win at, it has the biggest ratio hit and hope players who will chase everything down to the river and usually hit.

And for the record I watched the Ians last win at Waikerie as usual the morjority of players that made final were easy meat for a player of Ian's skill, why because they were check and call players, and if Ian banged in a big bet they folded.

Actually rating the best players in the riverland thats hard , theres a few good multi venue players like Ian, Tim, Swannie, Reece, Kon K, and a few others who have up and down seasons like Fred, Demo, John T, Nardi, Gooch and Mana. Its harder to rate single or 2 venue players like Macca Jenny H, Bill K. and a number of others including Krunchie.

I suppose the real skill is surviving against mongo players for example Thursday night a mongo called an all in with 8/4 off suit against A/K suited and she hit a boat.

[Garth Kay]

Ok this has been a fun thread and I'm not getting on board this debate.

But their are a few points I would like to raise:

based on the laws of proberability the more you play the more chances of winning.

True, but a skilled player will win more games (compared to a general average player) over the same amount of games, although our tournament structure is super turbo it does mean that we rely on luck a lot more in the later stages of the tournament.

it can be said that Waikerie is the hardest venue to win at, it has the biggest ratio hit and hope players who will chase everything down to the river and usually hit.

This statement seems to me to be a negative reflection on your skills as a poker player GUNDOG, every field is different, you're job as a poker player is to adapt your playing style and strategy to those of your opponents. I would say from the sounds of it against a field of this type, I would control the pot size a lot more, check where I would c bet if I miss. If I know my opponent is going to call on any draw then I don't shove on the flop or turn I am quite happy to fire out for value on the turn and see what the river brings. I would check call more often in certain situations rather than lead, and all in is my very last move, unless I have the stone cold nuts.

Sounds too much of a case "I had AK pre flop, bumped it up to 4X and copped 4 callers. Flop fell A K T, I have Top Two, One guy leads out from early, I now he is drawing so I shove, Anyone I get three callers, one has a Jack the other has a flush draw with a queen. Well you wouldn't believe a Queen hit the turn but then a spade fell the river and he coloured up and beat us all. I don't know how he can call with just a Queen and a flush draw."

Because that's the type of opponent you have. Why shove, when you know you are going to be called in a situation like that. You know this player will call you down on later streets, so value bet if anything.

And just for the record AK (any suit) vs Q2 (four flushing) on a flop of A,K,T with all the chips in the pot is only going to win 60% of the time, 40% of the time the Q2 will pick it up, so if I am shortstacked and it's late in a tourney (or even early for that matter) I am willing to gamble this most times. -EV I know, but sometimes it can't be helped.

And for the record I watched the Ians last win at Waikerie as usual the morjority of players that made final were easy meat for a player of Ian's skill, why because they were check and call players, and if Ian banged in a big bet they folded.

So they evolve from chasing players to very passive on the final table? And then Ian adapts his style on the final table to pick up some big pots? Good skillz IMO. Ask anyone who has player an NPL final table with me on it. I don't mind smashing a lot of pots and making people cry when I four bet them with 4,7 suited.

I suppose the real skill is surviving against mongo players for example Thursday night a mongo called an all in with 8/4 off suit against A/K suited and she hit a boat.

This is the most ridiculous comment of them all. If I see any word that can be classed as derogatory aimed at any players I will not hesitate to ask you to sit out ten weeks. This really pisses me off from the veteran players of our league, we all started playing somewhere, and we all had to learn and we all made stupid moves. Try and remember the first time you realised it wasn't a good idea to play a hand such a J, 2 suited from early position and why? Then try and remember what your mind was like the five seconds before that thought cemented in place.

If you want pub poker to continue to flourish then you should be welcoming the new players and trying to help them as much as possible not denegrating them for making a call and getting lucky.

And just in regards to 84 vs AK, you haven't given us an indication of what the blinds are, what the all in has shoved for and whether the BB had a monster stack and can afford to call. Because the truth is any unpaired cards against AK is only a 3 to 2 dog, and I only need to be getting pot odds of 2 to 1 to be calling in this situation dependant on stack sizes and stage of tournament. So without all the details I would say it was a fantastic call (depending on the scenario).

So in essence and to sum everything up.
1.) Great conversation from peers in one region, judging/debating who is the best.
2.) Adapt your playing style to those of your opponents.
3.) Show respect and try to help beginners along. And while you're at it read up on hand equity and pot odds.

[gundog]

we all started playing somewhere, and we all had to learn and we all made stupid moves.

Sorry Garth but this particular player is one who will call anything and everything, and she is seasoned player not a learner and she came back via the recall after being knocked out in the 2nd session, and just for the record I was not involved in the hand just looking in.

The hand in question it was late in the game blinds were 1000/2000 there were 7 players on the table the AK was mid position and the caller was just behind the button, with the call she was left with 1000.

And just for the record a lot Waikerie players do play devil may care poker style until final table when the transform into chip protect mode and can become easy pickings for a skilled player.

Oops looks like we have another word to join [Donkey]

[maccatak11]

Nice post Garth. Some excellent points. You have hit the nail on the head, and i was only talking to krunchie the other day about what we think each others strengths and weaknesses are.

I believe my strength is knowing when i am in front and putting opponents on a small range of cards, but my weakness is not predicting well enough what these players will do with their cards. Just being an 80% favourite on the flop isn't enough, and i have found that although many players would fold if i bet big, i get caught out by the chasers who are risking their entire stack with bottom pair and a flush draw on the river.

Like you suggested, i have found that more information can be gained by checking to a calling station and seing what they do. They will not bet a draw (most often) and will likely take a free card. A big bet by a novice more often indicates extreme strength rather than weakness. So instead of c-betting my AK, i will check, and if the board straightens or flushes on turn or river than i can re-evaluate, and likely throw my hand. Instead of semi-bluffing the flop here, i have changed to semi-bluffing the turn or river if a scare card doesn't come, knowing that a player who has missed their draw will fold. I have had a lot more success so far against players who are NPL regulars, knowing that these players are more protective of their chips. I am able to put these players to tought decisions where they will not risk their stack without top/top or better.

So aspects of controlling pot size, not getting myself into too many race situations (even if i am a 2-1 or 3-1 favourite) and varying from the standard raise/ c-bet type of play is what i am still working on. I believe me pre-flop play to be pretty solid, but then again thats the easy part of the game. I think my post flop play is developing, but i still have lots to improve on.

Question regarding multigame players. Is it harder to play against numerous different people each time in different fields, or is it harder to play against the same players week-in week-out and do well, knowing that these regulars are likely to have a much better understanding of your game?

[AceLosesKing]

Garth needs to hook up with Negreanu on vt.com.