Double December Points???

[Bob B]

I understand perfectly what benne, bob etc are saying now, and I think I agree. Cos if you get to discard your bad games, and only draw on your top or best 15 scores, you are only showing the better games not ALL your games. so if you are playing 100 games, the other 85 won't count.

the issue with changing this is that when I finished on top the first time (season 3, 2007), I wanted to stop playing after week 4 as I new that any more games would hinder my score. at that time, it was not designated that your best 15 only would count or that you in fact had to PLAY 15 to qualify for the state leader board. so I asked the questions and waited for the outcome, then continued to play as I knew my average could only get better, not go down.

so perhaps you are right with the state leaderboard winner, however, I did win it twice, under the criteria as set out by NPL, and there is only one other multiple winner, Alf Morley from Bendigo, but many other current and past winners have stayed in the top 10 and many other top 10 finishers have remained in the top 20-50 on a regular basis. this is playing in line with the NPL criteria.

Now, in saying all that, perhaps we should all be given the chance to play as many games as we want (with a minimum of course) and to have our entire season averaged out so that we have a true average. the only problem with that is that if you happen to have an average of around 75 by week 4 (that average will pretty much win it for you) then you (and perhaps your friends) will stop playing and find something else to do on your usual poker night. so then the venue misses out.

but if there was a venue prize worth winning, it would keep you playing. If there was a regional prize worth winning, it would keep you playing and perhaps entice you to other venues in your regions and if it was more selective to get into state finals, you would keep playing to protect your position.

In saying all this, my mind is running away with ideas. like having a venue leader final, even for first and second at a venue - say 100 venues, = 200 players ... what a great tourney that would make ... a regional leader final, say top 5, with 13 regions, that is only 65 players.

And I love the idea of the state's top 10 competing against the top 10 from all states, this is a cool idea. after all, garth did say this was a NATIONAL competition.

but all this creates another problem. It has been said that the available prize money should be made available to more players and this reduces the numbers. But as Garth also said, most of the players who play either don't know what is on offer, or don't care.

and instead of double points, a seat at a casino tournament would have kept players coming back for the remainder of the season, even just a phase 2 seat at the aussie millions (for us vics), worth only $250, it would have kept us playing right up to the end of the season, just to win it... and at a cost of just over $3000 in total combined for all regions, it may work out cheaper than all the headaches I am sure Garth has from all this.

It is so easy to come up with different ideas when you get all the players talking, and altough they may not be great, they are different. I hope Garth takes this with more than a grain of salt and takes it as constructive, cos that is the way it is meant.

Look out for more 'vics' in the forum, I am about to email about 30 of them to let them know about the forum and how to get here - some of us are not as quick as Benne or Bob ... lol ...

Where have you been Rosemary?????

You are a breath of fresh air to this forum and I'm so glad you decided to put your points of view accross the table. I believe you're saying what most of us are thinking or trying to say, but you have nailed it so perfectly.

Bloody hell I thought most Vics were you know, different to us crow eaters but your just like us so I hope the other 30 Vics you invite have the same input as yourself. Regards Bob B

[Garth Kay]

Bob,

You had as much time as anyone else to contribute your thoughts through the "You're the Boss Competition".

But as long as your happy to hitch your wagon up on any truck that comes along.


Here it is one more time -

Launch your ideas, throw them at me, but don't get upset when I say no we can't do that for this or that reason.

Don't hold back, let me have it everything you have wanted to see in this competition. Not just in regards to State Leaderboard but everything.

Now is the time to launch all these ideas so we can look at Season 3 if we need to change everything.

Double December points conversation is done and dusted, bad idea, lack of communication and letting down our mega game players, I get all that. I also wouldn't mind to hear stories about how I made it thanks to DD.

[Bob B]

Garth you and I have crossed swords a few times in the past and I'm sure we'll do so again. I'm not jumping on any ones wagon as I purely enjoy her comments and reasons behind them.

As far as throwing ideas at you and being upset if my suggestion were not accepted is a firfy. Obviously the logistics are in your favour as to what finances are available and as I said in previous posts I recognise NPL are a business and need to cover costs. Hopefully when the smoke clears there's a good profit margin there to be had.

And let's face it, the forum is one of your best assets besides your team to hear our likes and dislikes and gain fresh ideas. You have an excellent melting pot with some very creative ideas people on here and it costs you bugger all.

Granted, some are really good and some are really, really, bad. But isn't that what you need to stay on top of your chosen field?

I did consider replying to your post "NPL's You're the boss competition" where you asked if we were you how would we like to see the $500,000 prize pool be distributed. Unfortunately I was having a few medical problems at the time so I gave myself a forum pass.

Without going over old grounds all the time, I see the reasons behind the state leader board so as to encourage the punters to keep going for major prize.

I am concerned with the smaller venues not being around due to a drop off in numbers possiblly due to bigger prize pools being offered elsewhere.

So, I'm considering putting up a major prize pool for my local to see if we can steal some punters from other venues over a full season. It's still a work in progress but I do have people finacially interested.

Most of what you are suggesting for 2009 seems okay. The likes of the Berri Big Stack was a winner, along with the teams event etc which you have in the pipeline.

And as far as the DD points I'm gonna give it a crack and see if I can get into the top 5 at my 2 venues. Once again a friggin long winded story but that's me sorry guys.

[krunchie]

Bob,


Double December points conversation is done and dusted, bad idea, lack of communication and letting down our mega game players, I get all that. I also wouldn't mind to hear stories about how I made it thanks to DD.

I came 8th at waikerie club last night, and before last night i was 9th (only missed the points twice so far) the results havent been posted but 4 of the players in front of me didnt show last night, and my calculations of me getting double and them not even getting a 20 for showing put me rocketing up to 4th or even 3rd.

Now i was always going to be around the mark come the final week but this double points combined with a few no shows has certainly helped

so there you go garth.

[queen9]

bob, firstly, it is nice to be welcomed and my comments appreciated, and it is also nice to find someone else who crosses swords with garth ... lol..

I am not sure we had the chance in vic to be the boss, it would have been an interesting issue and I can only imagine that I would have spent hours going to town on it, working out the figures, venues etc, etc, etc,. so perhaps it's a good thing I wasn't in it ... lol ...

but I am a firm believer that if you look after the players, they look after the venues and they in turn look after the npl. when I first began, 2 years ago this month, the venue leader won a table ... OMG .. I wanted to do that so badly, that I went home, practiced, learnt, listened and came back to seasn 1 - 2007 with a new game plan. I learnt from some other players, a fabulous TD (Ivan), who gave me confidence in what I was doing and taught me one of the biggest lessons in poker - patience. he kept telling me I was so close to getting it all together, and he made me believe in myself so much, that I finished season 3 with 3 wins and top of the state leader board.

by season 3, the tables had been replaced with chip sets, and both my husband and I won one each, for finishing top of 2 venues. we were so excited. however, this was dampened by changes and issues and trialling things that did not work or did not last and our poker scores, prizes and finals were turned upside down.

then along comes garth, 5 months ago and I know he has a lot of baggage to dispel - and a lot of hurdles to get over - cos a lot of us players feel a little cheated and robbed by some of the decisions made by Garth's predecessor .... (not for public discussion)

so after over 12 months of being told one thing and doing another, some of us vics are a little on edge about more changes, especially when the staff don't understand exactly what is going on either. so it is expected that we will be the first to jump, once bitten, twice shy ...

however, Garth has admitted that dd was probably not handled well and again, I believe that this was NOT his idea, but one that was already initiated and out of his control. and he did ask to hear feedback on how it goes, and even though I haven't played in dd yet, I follow the leaderboard closely - my record, which would have stood the test of time, will now be falsely smashed. If that seems a little selfish, it is. I am allowed to be selfish some of the time.

And after 2 years of changes and failures - especially mid season ones, we would just like some continuity and consistency. and I am sure we will soon learn of bad beat dd stories from other vics as they come onboard. meanwhile, let me know Bob (and others) if you're coming to Melbourne ... so we can drum up a game some time ... lol ...

[Garth Kay]

bob, firstly, it is nice to be welcomed and my comments appreciated, and it is also nice to find someone else who crosses swords with garth ... lol..

I am not sure we had the chance in vic to be the boss, it would have been an interesting issue and I can only imagine that I would have spent hours going to town on it, working out the figures, venues etc, etc, etc,. so perhaps it's a good thing I wasn't in it ... lol ...

Bob and I go way back, there is a great deal of mutual respect between us I think, but we are both the same personality types; we like to shit stir and we are not backwards in coming forward, we also do not hesitate to say what we think and we stand by our comments and opinions (rather stubbonly). Bob is one of the more colorful characters you will meet on this site.

The competition is till open to you Rosemary and Bob, please submit your opinions and competition ideas. I will keep this comp open till the end of the year now, but do know that the first two seasons of the new year is cemented in place.

by season 3, the tables had been replaced with chip sets, and both my husband and I won one each, for finishing top of 2 venues. we were so excited. however, this was dampened by changes and issues and trialling things that did not work or did not last and our poker scores, prizes and finals were turned upside down.

then along comes garth, 5 months ago and I know he has a lot of baggage to dispel - and a lot of hurdles to get over - cos a lot of us players feel a little cheated and robbed by some of the decisions made by Garth's predecessor .... (not for public discussion)

so after over 12 months of being told one thing and doing another, some of us vics are a little on edge about more changes, especially when the staff don't understand exactly what is going on either. so it is expected that we will be the first to jump, once bitten, twice shy ...

The competition has being very solid for the last 12 months, I cannot comment on decisions made before me but I can say that if the competition does not evolve or change then it grows stagnant and we find players seeking alternative and different entertainment. I guarantee that these things will not happen under my direction. You have my word of honor.

however, Garth has admitted that dd was probably not handled well and again, I believe that this was NOT his idea, but one that was already initiated and out of his control. and he did ask to hear feedback on how it goes, and even though I haven't played in dd yet, I follow the leaderboard closely - my record, which would have stood the test of time, will now be falsely smashed. If that seems a little selfish, it is. I am allowed to be selfish some of the time.

Being selfish over this is entirely within your right, Rosemary, but the points system and the state leaderboard and how averages were calculated, and the state leaderboard itself was always going to evolve and change dramatically over a 12 - 24 month time period. Hence why we have not implemented a hall of fame or set stat records.

And after 2 years of changes and failures - especially mid season ones, we would just like some continuity and consistency. and I am sure we will soon learn of bad beat dd stories from other vics as they come onboard.

So the last two years have being nothing but a failure? I beg to differ, why it has being an educational proces for us all, and certain things have being handled (in my opinion) extremely badly that is no reason to think of the past two years as failures, I am sure many players would agree with me on this.

Continuity and consistency cannot be guaranteed, the competition can never remain the same and it will constantly evolve and change as we and the market develop. That is a given, tournament rules will remain the same, the structure will remain relatively similar, but many things need to change as the market develops, people grow in skills and the market needs and wants develop.

When all is said and done, this seems to be a back and forth conversation over certain matters that I had no control over. I say we get past that and look to the future and comment about things we can look to adapt and change.

Currently I believe we do look after players and both venues. I spent the day in Warrnambool and Portland, every player I spoke to loves NPL and every manager I spoke to loves the product. Numbers down here have shown a downward trend of 10% YTD but we are still keeping players and venues happy to the extent I received 20 testimonials from players and managers tonight. I am off to Mildura tomorrow and Milo has done a fantastic job up there and I cannot wait to hear what players have to say up there as they are the most remote region.

[Goose]

I STILL DONT LIKE THE IDEA
After seeng the results of pooraka on tuesday night it proves the point that all you have to do is play well or get lucky during double points and you could make the finals.
Just to prove my point the winner jumped from mid 30s to 2nd after their win.
BUT the second placegetter has only played once and is sitting 33rd. Now in theory this person could hit points over the next few weeks and could possibly qualify as a finalist after 3 games.
No disrespect to any players mentioned but some players have had regular success and been picking up points regularly only to be swamped by some promotion for the last few weeks.

IS THIS PROMOTION GOING TO CONTINUE ?????

If so i have planned my strategy.
Playing online or at the casino for the first 6 weeks (as stated before) NO NPL or supporting the venues
Then playing the last 4 weeks with a goal to playing about 30 games.
My average strike rate for points over this season and last is about 50% with an average points pickup of around 45 -50.
So so under the double points system i should then have an average of somewhere between 80 -100 points
Enough to make the finals via the top 50

[queen9]

firstly garth, I did not say that the last 2 years was a failure, what I said was that changes especially mid season, were failures and these changes affected many things - you have to admit that.

and I am all for moving forward, but in order to do that, you need to know where we came from - that will hopefully prevent the same mistakes being made again.

continuity and consistency during the season, without changes mid way through that affect the final outcome, that is all we ask for, surely that is a far enough thing.

and not only with the format or criteria, but with the rules, the decisions and the prizes - and I say this because of where I have come from and what has affected a great deal of us players.

[queen9]

I agree with goose, and although dd points discussion is done and dusted as garth says, there will always be 2 sides to this arguement - those who win because of it will be in favour of it and those who lose out because of it will be against it.

there is a lot of talk about how to deal with dd next time it happens, your idea goose, is just one of them. what a pity that we can't just enjoy our poker and not have to be thinking of ways to trick the system.

hopefully garth's idea of having one week in a season for double points will be the only time it happens, then we will all be on a level playing field again. ... Q9

[BigPete33]

Crikey, my head hurts!

That's the last time I take a break from online goings on!

Hi Rosemary Welcome aboard, good to see you (and others) contributing so passionately.

I was AWOL at the time you asked so apologies for the delay in replying but I think you asked me about the state leaderboard and why I think it's not a reflection of how good a player is?

In simple terms, because it's not.

I find the very name leads to players believing (usually mistakenly) they are better than they are (hello there Victoria). To apply some perspective.... have a look at "leaderboard" average vs actual average. Often they are VERY different but I see you are aware of this as I read your earlier posts.

In general terms the actual average is a better indication of how well a player is doing, as is number of placings vs games played and all that kind of thing. A comprehensive stats leaderboard (even if not used for any purpose other than bragging rights) is a crazy good idea IMHO.

Speaking of perspective, I'd like to attempt to apply some to the DD points promotion. The promotion sucks in it's present form and the lack of notice was disgusting, no argument from me there, but consider this....

To finish top 5 at a venue you have to consistently make the points over the course of the season. That hasn't changed just because it's DD points - you still need to perform over the WHOLE season - if you do that then it's highly likely you will be fine. Complaining because you may have had 'a bad run of cards' (seriously... WTF?) at the tail end of the season was a lame excuse beforehand and it's a lame excuse now.

As for the DD promo and the "state leaderboard" - I really couldn't care less. Those players were going to play a bazillion games a season anyway, are still having many more shots at double points than most other players care to and they still need to finish high up in as many large fields as they can so their chances haven't really changed much. Some of the players who were complaining actually had pretty unexciting "leaderboard" averages to begin with and the DD would only be helping them.