My PT Stats

[Des]

OMG

Email tilt and stars and 888 and tell them you wish to use a bot on their sites.... see the reply you get.

[BigPete33]

Not to be rude but +1 to the OMG.


It's YOUR account, that YOU should be playing, not the bots!


Nothing wrong with research, in fact I'm all for it, but in a closed environment perhaps with volunteers that are actual people who know they are competing against bots.


It's just plain wrong.


I'm not joking or having a go here, but please do as Des suggested and email stars or tilt or whoever and explain to them in great detail how/when/why you use the bots and the limitations you enforce on them etc as you described to us. If they think there's nothing wrong with your methods I'm sure they'll say so. I'd be very surprised if their response wasn't quite blunt though.

[maccatak11]

Didnt kasperov know hey was playing against a machine??

The fact that all players log in and assume they are playing against other humans when in fact they arent is where the type of deception associated with bots is wrong.

Seriously, you need to really question yourself if you think this kind of cheating online is anything other than completely wrong and illegal.

[AJG]

Point 3 is the only valid one, imo.
As, i have seen people (successfully) play over 30 SnGs at once.
about playing longer hours:
a) this is something sites look for to indicate a bot, so most successful botters limit the time in any given session or week.
b) Lets say a bot stays a the same table for a full 24hours, they are not playing the same opponents for that whole time?

WHat I mean when I say I dont consider it cheating (although agree with ur point 3, many human players can be machinelike in their discipline sometimes) is that, say you and a bot were at the same table, just for 2 hours. What advantage does the bot have, really? Indeed they have some significant disadvantages...

so you can play 30 SNGs can you? some poeple might, but you definitely couldnt.

Big statement, as you hav no idea of my mental capabilities, concentation levels etc AND your getting personal again!
But since I never claimed I could, why do you feel the need to make such a statement?

same thing for the longer hours. i agree that you cant have the bot going 24/7, but you could still have it going 14 hours a day 365 days a year, playing 30 tables at once. a human, especially one at your or my level, wouldnt even come close to this volume.

You obviously have little or no idea of the methods poker sites use to detect bot, this statement makes that clear! Any player running 14hrs x 365 would IMMEDIATELY be flagged as a bot! I know of real people who have been flagged as bots and had to go to great lengths to prove they weren't

so yes, bots are cheating. if you dont think so, then thats stupid
Again, getting personal...

Not to be rude but +1 to the OMG.
It's just plain wrong.
Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it, as am I.

Where the hell did people get the idea I am using or intending to use a bot on a live poker site?

My stance that bots arent cheating is this: Simply substituting AI for Human intelligence IS NOT cheating.... Thats IT! Other considerations like how long they can play for is irrelevant.

Stars or FTP will give me the response they know that players like you guys want: NO BOTS. But themselves would LOVE bots at their sites as it can only increase their profits! And if YOU cant see that, then YOU are stupid!
I would LOVE to be at a table full of bots!

FFS: I said, I wont put a bot on a site like stars or ftp, as it is against their T&Cs, and i only do it to further some of my research and for the fun of machine v machine online comps. So whats with all the 'email stars and tell them your methods and see their response'??

Didnt kasperov know hey was playing against a machine??

The fact that all players log in and assume they are playing against other humans when in fact they arent is where the type of deception associated with bots is wrong.

Seriously, you need to really question yourself if you think this kind of cheating online is anything other than completely wrong and illegal.

Why does it matter if you know you are playing against a bot? Would it have changed anything? Sounds to me like they scare all of you!
Are you aware of the Turing Test for true machine intelligence? (which I happen to beleive will never occur, but thats a personal thing)
You seem to imply here, that the cheating is in not declaring they are a bot...

I am entitled to any opinion I wish, and should not be told "I really need to question myself' because of it. I guarantee I have been around the botting world (both, people who do it on Stars etc, and those like myelf who do it only for research) more than anyone on this site, and therefore quite probably know a few things about it that you dont!
One of the things that I HAVE learned from this, is that peoples' thinking that bots are cheating is largely a product of their own ignorance.

You all seem to think because its AI controlling the bots decision, it immediately has an advantage, hence cheating. Maybe its you guys who should educate yourselves more in the botting world and maybe you'd realize that you should be HAPPY to have a bot at your table.

And you need to FULLY read the pokerstars T&Cs... See how many of their clauses are completely unethical, some even illegal. The only reason they can enforce these is from the countries they operate out of.

Someone please show me a law, other than a poker sites' T&Cs that says its illegal to use a bot?

i suggest you guys stay on the topic, as had you read my OP, youd know I dont use them for money play. i specifically said that i ONLY enter them in machine v machine and man v machine competitions.

[maccatak11]

Why does it matter if you know you are playing against a bot?

Because i believe its completely unethical for players to do this in an environment which is designed for human v human interaction and competition.

Ok for the next olympic sailing competition i have designed a robot which will sail a boat around the given course. now its pretty good, and does alright sometimes, but the best people, if they sail well will beat it, but it might win the odd race. For this olympics there will only be one 'sailbot' in the field of twenty, but for the next world championships, all racers except for you will be 'sailbots'. Do you still want to compete? Its not that im scared of playing against a bot, i just don't want to. It doesnt appeal to me and it goes against most of the reasons i play poker in the first place (human interaction, challenging myself against other people).

To suggest that poker sites WANT bots on their sites is ridiculous in my opinion. If the general public found out that sites such as stars were allowing or even encouraging bots on their sites, would they want to play there anymore? How the hell will this earn stars extra money?

Please don't misinterpret also AJG, i dont think anybody here was implying that you were actually using bots on poker sites like stars, we are just debating the fact that you think its ok for other people to do so. So don't use comments like "i have a right to my own opinion" (which i believe we all do) and then procede to criticize others because their opinions are different to yours.

[BigPete33]

AJG: I mean this in the nicest possible way......

Get over yourself.


You are seriously talking rubbish now. No self respecting poker site would willingly allow you to use bots - end of story. Stars and tilt (and also the "whatever" you seem to have overlooked) were just examples and obviously 2 of the sites that leap to most peoples minds first.


Having a bot on a site is quite clearly not permitted.

Whatever else their T&C's say regardless of how moral, legal or otherwise they are they do nothing to change that fact.

In addition, benny the cunt remarked that a comment was stupid (he used the word "that"). He did not remark that YOU were stupid. You simply chose to take it that way. If something is in fact stupid, then it's stupid. You will just have to live with that.

Thread is now locked before it gets any further out of hand.

[Garth Kay]

I have a few comments on this as to why this is cheating or gaining an unfair advantage.

Poker in its entire element is a human game, we pounce on perceived weaknesses of our opponents and utilise these weaknesses of our opponents and the strengths of our own to dominate a game or table at any time. Poker is developing into a very mathematical game very quickly, and any computer processor can calculate significant mathematical equations in the fraction of the time that humans do.

On the Internet (without the possibility of visual cues), computers are probably better at predicting a rival’s hand from his or her past play and has the ability to record past data far greater and more accurately than a human brain can.

Computers/Programs are also much better at confounding the expectations of their human opponents, by recording playing patterns of opponents the ability for a program/computer to evolve into Meta game philosophies and to generate millions of calculations in a finite time lend them to playing randomized strategies much better than humans can.

As Humans our brains are so hardwired to see patterns, it is extremely hard for most of us to generate random behaviour in an online and consistent environment playing environment. Our biggest tells as players aren’t really the facial tics or baseline body behaviour or limbic brain responses but the fact that we just cannot, or find it extremely difficult to, stop ourselves from playing non-randomly; hence why reading and following opponent's betting patterns and understanding PT data is an advantage to a player who understands these concepts.

In saying all of the above high quality bots are an online gambler’s worst nightmare but are able to be beaten, in the end I believe that bots won’t kill poker. They’ll eventually just drive it off line and old fashioned “humans-only" competition will still thrive and be the norm. Hallelujah!

Bots are problematic and probably don't receive as much media attention as they were receiving two years ago, but they are more prolific, faster, smarter and more adaptable than ever before. There are some genius programmers out there who have created some absolutely fascinating code/programs that are almost reaching the pinnacle of true AI. Almost, as in; several thousand miles but still closer than anyone else has been before.

[BigPete33]

OK I'm unlocking the thread because at last we have a sensible response which isn't someone getting shirty over people not agreeing with them and is actually a reasonable discussion point.

PLEASE continue with a reasonable discussion - that goes for everyone, self included.




Just to be clear, I'm pretty pissed off so don't tempt me.

[bennymacca]

Big statement, as you hav no idea of my mental capabilities, concentation levels etc AND your getting personal again!
But since I never claimed I could, why do you feel the need to make such a statement?

if you are telling me that you can play 30 sngs at once, and have a positive ROI, then i will stand corrected and ill apologise. i am 100% that noone on this site will be able to play 30 SNGs at once. i doubt that there are many pros that can play 30 at once at a decent win rate. shaun deeb only plays around 18.

You obviously have little or no idea of the methods poker sites use to detect bot, this statement makes that clear! Any player running 14hrs x 365 would IMMEDIATELY be flagged as a bot! I know of real people who have been flagged as bots and had to go to great lengths to prove they weren't

ok, how about i change it to any length of time that is longer than most of us can play. happy? surely you are nit picking here.

Again, getting personal...

no, as pete said get, i said your COMMENTS are stupid. and i stand by that. that doesnt mean you are stupid.

Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it, as am I.

ok, so why are you so defensive when we disagree with your opinions?

Where the hell did people get the idea I am using or intending to use a bot on a live poker site?

from this quote

I dont consider a Pokerbot to be cheating

how do you not expect us to NOT draw that conclusion?

But themselves would LOVE bots at their sites as it can only increase their profits! And if YOU cant see that, then YOU are stupid!

the problem with bots are that even if they lose, they lose over a long period of time, rather than short term tilt. there are also really bad players that come and dump 5 buyins and then leave. bots dont do this.

i suggest you guys stay on the topic, as had you read my OP, youd know I dont use them for money play. i specifically said that i ONLY enter them in machine v machine and man v machine competitions.

this is completely fine, noone has an issue with that. but you said that bots arent cheating, and thats what we have taken issue with.

dont patronise us by saying "had you read my OP".

[bennymacca]

garth, great post - constructive and informative