My PT Stats

[AJG]

AJG: I mean this in the nicest possible way......

Get over yourself.


You are seriously talking rubbish now. No self respecting poker site would willingly allow you to use bots - end of story.
LOL (at the 'Get over myself')- my info on this comes from insiders at pokerstars, I KNOW they would love to allow bots, it is to maintain image to players that they dissalow them.
- end of story.


Having a bot on a site is quite clearly not permitted.
for reasons stated above

Whatever else their T&C's say regardless of how moral, legal or otherwise they are they do nothing to change that fact.
for reasons stated above

In addition, benny the cunt remarked that a comment was stupid (he used the word "that"). He did not remark that YOU were stupid. You simply chose to take it that way. If something is in fact stupid, then it's stupid. You will just have to live with that.

Thread is now locked before it gets any further out of hand.

Big statement, as you hav no idea of my mental capabilities, concentation levels etc AND your getting personal again!
But since I never claimed I could, why do you feel the need to make such a statement?

if you are telling me that you can play 30 sngs at once, and have a positive ROI, then i will stand corrected and ill apologise. i am 100% that noone on this site will be able to play 30 SNGs at once. i doubt that there are many pros that can play 30 at once at a decent win rate. shaun deeb only plays around 18.
Did you read in the part you quoted where i said "I never claimed I could"

You obviously have little or no idea of the methods poker sites use to detect bot, this statement makes that clear! Any player running 14hrs x 365 would IMMEDIATELY be flagged as a bot! I know of real people who have been flagged as bots and had to go to great lengths to prove they weren't

ok, how about i change it to any length of time that is longer than most of us can play. happy? surely you are nit picking here.

..........

Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it, as am I.

ok, so why are you so defensive when we disagree with your opinions?
Not defensive, I am just trying to expand on my thinkink and opinions on this

Where the hell did people get the idea I am using or intending to use a bot on a live poker site?

..........

the problem with bots are that even if they lose, they lose over a long period of time, rather than short term tilt. there are also really bad players that come and dump 5 buyins and then leave. bots dont do this.
How does it matter if they lose over a long period of time or not? rake is staill rake, tourney fess are still fees... Its still profit to the pokersite.

i suggest you guys stay on the topic, as had you read my OP, youd know I dont use them for money play. i specifically said that i ONLY enter them in machine v machine and man v machine competitions.

this is completely fine, noone has an issue with that. but you said that bots arent cheating, and thats what we have taken issue with.

dont patronise us by saying "had you read my OP".
I actually aimed this at the people saying like "OMG, email stars and tell them what u r doing, not you...

Yes, Garth some great AI has been developed, but the number of bots using such advanced tech is about 0.0001% of all the bot software out there... Most are still stuck in the 'Hardwired behaviour' mode you mentioned. Seriously some of your assumptions about a computers advantages over a human arent exactly accurate. They basically only have the ability to perform calculations quicker. One of the biggest areas in AI research is in making computers adaptable to changing codditions of all sorts, so to say they have advantage over us in that regard just isnt the case. One of the detection methods of the sites, infact, is to datamine hand histories looking for NON-variation in playing style to a high degree which characterizes most bots.
And I was not talking about bots that do massive datamining of opponents, infact this is one of the things I said was cheating. It is still my opinion, and will remain so until AI in general equals that of humans (which it is yet to do in all but a few niche fields), that simply exchanging computer AI with Human Intelligence does not in and of itself consitute cheating. I did not say that some people dont use software to cheat at online poker, only that as I just said the difference between AI, and humans doesnt contitute cheating.

Some players use PT and HUDs, odds calculators and other realtime strategy aids. Are these players cheating against players who don't use them as urely by using them they have an unfair advantage... Not acording to the poker sites and player base in general, and yet this is one of the things you state gives a bot an advantage...

Again, all I think, is that the simple substition of computer/human to make the decisions isnt cheating. Yes some (extremely rare) bots do incorporate more things which does make it cheating, Im not disputing that, and never did. I even alluded to this my OP in this thread.

Obviously we will not agree on this issue, that is fine.
It seems from some reactions that I get, that I 'don't like not getting my way' or similar things. This isnt the case. I put across my opinions and expand upon them if a discussion ensues regarding them. I am never trying to make people see things as I do. We all have free will, and those who know me personally, know I consider not allowing such freewill is one of the worst things one can do. If people read my further thoughts, and something makes sense to them, ok... If not, ok... I am just discussing my opinions, not trying to 'get my own way'. But I will also state things I know to be true, and will try to backup that statement rather than simply just 'put it out there'...

T4... out of this discussion now....
It always seems like innocent things I say, like in this case I write bots for machine v machine competitions and research, seem to develop into flames somehow or another.... I dont want that...

[bennymacca]

the whole 30 games thing was to make a point that you, i, and everyone else on this site cannot play that many games at once.

a bot can. this advantage is HUGE


the same thing can be said about the amount of time that a bot can spend playing. (yes, they have to be limited to avoid getting detected etc etc)


of course pokerstars dont care if there are bots, because its all rake to them. but thats not the argument. the argument is if bots are cheating or not.



ill give you a scenario

player A is a skilled player at micro stakes cash games. he can play 4 tables at once, and makes 10 dollars an hour. he does this for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. any more and he is completely stuffed and he gets tired and starts losing.

player b plays 20 tables at once, winning 1 dollar an hour. player b can do this for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week.


what if i then said that player A was a human, and player B is a bot that the same player uses. he sets this up on a different account, using wireless internet so its a different ip, but every night he sets it going and goes to sleep.


do you think that this player has an advantage over other players that clock the same win rate, that dont use a bot?

[AceLosesKing]

player b plays 20 tables at once, winning 1 dollar an hour. player b can do this for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week.


what if i then said that player A was a human, and player B is a bot that the same player uses. he sets this up on a different account, using wireless internet so its a different ip, but every night he sets it going and goes to sleep.


do you think that this player has an advantage over other players that clock the same win rate, that dont use a bot?

This is the definition of cheating. He is making money without doing any work.

[Garth Kay]

Not exactly the definition of cheating AK.

And my comments are not assumptions AJG, maybe you should check out the POLARIS program and similar initiatives coming out of MIT. Even though high end spec bot programs account for a very small minority of bots operating, ths is still enough to deter many players from playing online.

It is only a matter of time before scandals such as the AB and UB fiasco, poker bots and the T6 collapse have such a detrimental impact that the online poker industry ceases to grow and eventually sees a downturn of 25%, and that is the magic number; so many online sites cannot afford even a short term downturn in their turnover.

I have made my points and even though I am no expert on this matter, I do have several friends who work in the security department of Poker Stars as well as am friends with senior management of 888, Poker Stars and Full Tilt. So I also have friends who work in the industry and we have actually had a long discussion on bots and online cheating. And apparently we have been speaking to friends that have differing opinions on bots. Online poker has copped a fairly big black mark against it's name over the last few years, they do not want anything else to prove detrimental to their growth in the industry.

"Cheating in poker is any behavior outside the rules that is intended to give an unfair advantage to one or more players"

Generally speaking, taking the human element out of poker and developing a program, that uses complex mathematical formulae and data mined information, to almost instantly arrive at the most profitable and effecient play is not gaining an unfair advantage?

Isn't the objective of all good poker players really to remove the base human elements from the game and to always arrive at the right decisions time and again?

Just because the majority of bots are not fully capable of meeting these standards at this time, does not make it right that bots are in use.

[AJG]

player b plays 20 tables at once, winning 1 dollar an hour. player b can do this for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week.


what if i then said that player A was a human, and player B is a bot that the same player uses. he sets this up on a different account, using wireless internet so its a different ip, but every night he sets it going and goes to sleep.


do you think that this player has an advantage over other players that clock the same win rate, that dont use a bot?

This is the definition of cheating. He is making money without doing any work.

OK, maybe if I put how I see it like this:
Player A makes a certain amount by playing poker himself.
He uses his skill as a player to make money playing poker.

Player B, uses his skill as a programmer, and AK an extremely considerable amount of work, to write software capable of making money on online poker sites (It is an extremely difficult and time consimung thing to do, and very few people successfully do it).

I never discounted the fact that a computer can player longer will not advantage one players winnings over a non-bot player.
I simply dont see the exchange of a computer to make the decisions instead of a human as cheating, which alot of people do.

But again, to actualize a bot to play crazy amounts of hours, requires other things like multiple accounting and other things which are also against the T&Cs of the site (which is not the same as breaking the law), but take a considerable effort to maintain. So it basically comes down to two different ways to make money out of an online poker room, and honestly I think its the fact that the bot based player can make so much more from it is what really ticks people off about the whole thing.
In some ways I liken it to someone who has a knowledge of economics/stocks etc and utilizes his finite resources to make more of them than someone who doesnt. They are using the same system, just differently and making it work better for them. Personally I dont have a problem with this. Those extreme few who have the capability to do this, good on them, they are just putting their skills to work on a poker site in a different way. I think most people who could bend any system to make it work better for them would, just with online poker extremely few can.
In many industries, people use differring skillsets to profit from the very same industries...

So using a bot to play crazy amounts of poker is cheating the system, but it doesnt disadvantage any particular human players... Most good human players, at a table with 99.9% of bots, would more likely have the advantage and often a considerable one...

This is just my way of seeing it.

Garth, your post came while I was writing this.
I am well aware of POLARIS, which incidentally comes from the University of Alberta. And also that some of the stuff developed by people from PokerAI.org actually exceeds this. I actually correspond with both Aaron Davidson and Darse Billings on various Poker AI subjects (they are the ones largely behind POLARIS). Darse Billings also does work for the online poker community, while working simultaneously in the Poker AI research comunity.

The contact I have had with people inside the industry have basically said to me, that the reaosn they don't allow bots is because of the negative public perception of them, not because they are inherintly bad... Although obviously just by the fact they are in contact with botters would indicate that they arent against it as some are.

And the key phrase in your quote of the cheating is 'outside the rules', well who makes those rules... the poker sites. As an example of what I was saying about ridiculous things in Stars T&Cs is, they not only prohibit certain software being run simultanously with their software, they even prohibit certain programs even being installed on your machine, even if you never run it at the dame time as pokerstars software. That is ludicrous. Not to mention some of the devious and invasive techniques they use, and reserve the right to use to detect such breaches of their T&Cs, some of which are clear breaches of their customers privacy.
Odds calculators and tracking software combined with HUDs give players the same information available to bots. But there is also debate in some circles wether this is cheating to... Many people think it is, as this also provides an uneven playing field between those who do and those who dont use them.
I did say i think the mass datamining of hands and the like was cheating.

Personally i think the whole thing is a subject of ethics. A topic of debate since the time af the ancient greek philosphers, so there will always be diffring opinions...

[AceLosesKing]

Not the exact definition, but it might as well be. The player is knowingly breaking the T&Cs of a poker site, and using advanced software (compared to his human opposition) to gain an upper hand against his opponents, when his game goes unaffected.

Totally not fair.

[Bacon]

Just a quick question (and I am against bots, just for my ignorance on the subject)...

Bots obviously have the unfair advantage of being able to calculate odds based on history, so how does that differ from someone using PokerTracker, or the like?

This tells you, at a glance, whether a player is LAG, TAG or whatnot... I don't use PT, and I have to remember what players play like. Doesn't PT give players an unfair advantage?

[bennymacca]

Just a quick question (and I am against bots, just for my ignorance on the subject)...

Bots obviously have the unfair advantage of being able to calculate odds based on history, so how does that differ from someone using PokerTracker, or the like?

This tells you, at a glance, whether a player is LAG, TAG or whatnot... I don't use PT, and I have to remember what players play like. Doesn't PT give players an unfair advantage?

you are right, players that use PT do have an advantage over players that dont use it.

but the big distinction is that humans still have to make decisions on this data - and this is where the human element comes in

[bennymacca]

I simply dont see the exchange of a computer to make the decisions instead of a human as cheating

are you trying to say that you believe you are AS GOOD AS a computer at processing every single hand from 30 tables at once, and making the absolutely correct mathematical decision every time in the absense of tilt etc?

surely as a programmer you realise this is rediculous. i mean the whole reason computers have entered modern life is their ability to perform tasks a lot quicker than humans.

how about i give you a pen and pad and 100 arithmetic questions, and i do them on the computer.

So using a bot to play crazy amounts of poker is cheating the system, but it doesnt disadvantage any particular human players

of course it disadvantages individial players.
think of it this way. what if a bot could only beat the bottom 10% of players. these players dump multiple buyins in an hour, and would generally donate to the regulars of that game.

if those regulars are missing out because they dont get a slice of those bad players' money, then of course this disadvantages them.

Most good human players, at a table with 99.9% of bots, would more likely have the advantage and often a considerable one...

i am sorry, but to justify something is not cheating just because it is not very good yet is just ridiculous. think of a sprinter that uses drugs, but yet doesnt do very well - is he still cheating, just because he sucked? OF COURSE HE IS

another important point is that bots are not consistently beating humans YET.

if bots were allowed at major sites, you could guarantee in a heartbeat that the numbers of programmers in the botting community would rise exponentially. soon there would be a massive community, and from then on it would only be a matter of time before decent bots would be available.

[Brett Kay]

Just to make the clarification, Pokertracker takes hands that have been played by the player and then converted into data that a player can use to make a decision. Datamining is where a player hasn't risked any money and got information on players that they can then use to their advantage to get money out of them.

Tracking is considered legal. Datamining is considered illegal, and a lot of sites do forbid it.

With using pokertracker to make a decision, the decision process can still be flawed in the variables of the human mind. Fatigue, Tilt, anger, boredom, can all result in a person saying why not, and calling when they should fold. Even performing a calculation is still only approximate, there are a few players that could probably get it to 1 or 2 decimal places.

Having a bot make a decision using pokertracker stats, their decision will always will be correct, Obviously we are talking 1000's of possibilities in a split second, whilst we are still trying to decide how much is in the pot. Once again the influence of fatigue tilt anger boredom aren't coming into play.

A bot is reducing the variables that effect a normal player. They play optimally all the time. Now i am certain there is no person that can play optimally for 7 days straight with no rest correct? Now even if they play break even at 10/20 and rake back is the profit generated. Its still the issue that poker is a personal game. Having bots play for you is akin to cheating. Sites forbid it because of the simple fact that it takes away from the spirit of the game.

As for multitabling 30 tables at once, we are talking 10 clicks per second on average. A computer can obviously make all those decisions before the second is up, whilst i am still trying to decide on what i am doing before i have clicked a button.

Bots will always be contentious, Due to cash being involved people will feel that is cheating because the opposition has no weakness. They make optimal decisions, they aren't effected by runner bad beats, or stupid calls. They also don't get sleepy.

As for Kasparov vs Deep Blue, he knew he was going up against a computer, but when the computer can analyse up to the next 100 moves in 10 seconds. You have to know your at a disadvantage.

As for the site that will use bots. They won't have any players there, due to the nature that people are using these bots to eventually gain money by not working.