888PL TC's to return to play in regular competition

[pmk]

I voted no.

This was a topic of discussion at a venue tonight and some interesting points were raised.

Unfortunately there is an association of gambling with poker. 888PL needs to be seen to be above reproach in all its dealings; particularly with large prize monies involved. 888PL is probably the most professionally run poker league I’ve come across so far (haven’t played at many others but I’m getting there). A lot of hard work and integrity has been invested into the 888PL to date and all it takes is one disgruntled former (or about to be) contractor to act unethically and a lot of that would unravel (the past is full of examples).

Look at the issues with players’ girlfriends/wives/friends colluding. There is enough of a problem already with this that some people won’t play on tables where some couples sit simply because they help each other (sometimes not very covertly either).

If a bar person works in the pokies room in a pub or club then they aren’t allowed to play those pokies. Why?

Yes, they might be free, pub poker games and many people don’t take them seriously and/or view them as purely a social events, but there are many people who take them more seriously and actively chase the leader board points. TCs playing in tournaments will quite radically change the outcome of leader boards.

At another poker league where the TCs play in the game they had a $50 bounty on their heads so while they could do damage to a player chasing points there was the spice of getting the $50 scalp. The 2nd time I played there was no bounty and the TC took out some players who might have reached the final table had the TC not been playing. So the outcome of the game had been changed by the addition of another variable.

On top of this, TCs generally know how most of their regulars play and thus they have a very real and distinct advantage over them. Plus they have an intimate working knowledge of the game and the league. Which would be like putting ninja poker playing foxes in a hen house and we'd be plucked, de-egged and rolled in 11 herbs & spices before you could say "mmmm... tastes like chicken".

In my opinion, allowing TCs to play in regular 888PL games would damage the integrity of 888PL and play into the hands of Sky City and whose earnest desire is to close pub poker down.

HOWEVER, having said all that, I would absolutely love to play poker with the TCs! Hell yeah baby!

As commented many times tonight, for the most part they are good people and some of them are good poker players too.

Why not turn it around and have a separate event like the online Captains game (which would have been fun) but where 888PL players are invited to play? There was something like this happening at one CBD event at an ungodly hour which I tried to get to but work commitments prevented me.

Any TC inclusive event would need to stand alone from the 888PL regular games and be clearly labelled as a TC playable game (like the TC bounty game of the GF). This could be a very popular event. One that I’m sure would pay its way and warrant being held regularly.

500 votes? Pffft.. you’re dreamin’ Garth. The first I heard of this topic was tonight, from a player. I’d like to wager it won’t get above 150 in 27 days.

[bennymacca]

Unfortunately there is an association of gambling with poker.

i fail to see how this is in any way related to the issue of TC's playing in the freeroll competitions. perhaps you can expand on this a little bit pete.

A lot of hard work and integrity has been invested into the 888PL to date and all it takes is one disgruntled former (or about to be) contractor to act unethically and a lot of that would unravel (the past is full of examples).

this is definitely true, it would be a shame if one person ruined it for everyone.

Look at the issues with players’ girlfriends/wives/friends colluding. There is enough of a problem already with this that some people won’t play on tables where some couples sit simply because they help each other (sometimes not very covertly either).

to be honest, WHY DONT YOU SAY SOMETHING IF YOU BELIEVE THERE IS COLLUSION GOING ON?!?!?!?!?
your failure to say anything, in my opinion, damages the integrity of the competition much much more than the issue of TC's playing.

If a bar person works in the pokies room in a pub or club then they aren’t allowed to play those pokies. Why?

can they play when they are off duty? i thought that they would be able to, but if they can't, please correct me. obviously TC's wont be playing while they are working.

On top of this, TCs generally know how most of their regulars play and thus they have a very real and distinct advantage over them.

this is a moot point pete. at my regular venue, i also know how most of the regulars play, and i too believe that i have a very real and distinct advantage over them. should i be banned because of this?

At another poker league where the TCs play in the game they had a $50 bounty on their heads so while they could do damage to a player chasing points there was the spice of getting the $50 scalp. The 2nd time I played there was no bounty and the TC took out some players who might have reached the final table had the TC not been playing. So the outcome of the game had been changed by the addition of another variable.

i agree with this, if the TC's are playing, then the rules by which they are playing need to be consistent across every single game - which garth looks like he will be doing should TC's be able to play again.

HOWEVER, having said all that, I would absolutely love to play poker with the TCs! Hell yeah baby!

As commented many times tonight, for the most part they are good people and some of them are good poker players too.

YES!

Why not turn it around and have a separate event like the online Captains game (which would have been fun) but where 888PL players are invited to play? There was something like this happening at one CBD event at an ungodly hour which I tried to get to but work commitments prevented me.

Any TC inclusive event would need to stand alone from the 888PL regular games and be clearly labelled as a TC playable game (like the TC bounty game of the GF). This could be a very popular event. One that I’m sure would pay its way and warrant being held regularly.

i dont mind the idea, but as you say, by making a special TC event, that most likely puts the location in the city, and so therefore means that most of us from the outer suburbs wont be able to play.





good post pete, raises some interesting points.

[bennymacca]

ok, lets put a different spin on it.

i can see the TC participation in regular freeroll events actually enhancing the overall integrity of the games, rather than being detrimental to it, and here is why.

1. i think it will reduce the likelihood of cheating by the players. if there is a TC sitting on the same table, or a nearby table, i think players will be less likely to collude, steal chips, or whatever else they might want to do, because it creates an extra staff presence in the room. the instances of player cheating would far outweigh the instances of staff cheating, and then if you multiply by all the players in the room, i can see a big reduction in this due to the extra staff presence.

2. TC's off duty raise the standard of the game, not in terms of skill necessarily, but in terms of how the game is run, etiquette etc.
things like rabbit hunting, going through the muck, counting down pots when one player is all in etc, can all be overseen by the TC. most importantly, general players will learn how to do this, and why it is done in a certain way. even things like shuffling and dealing can be taught by the TC in a casual environment, lifting the general skill of the playing population in this area.

3. in terms of general skill, TC's are obviously better on average. instead of thinking of this as a negative, it can definitely be a positive. what better way for new players to learn than to play with a TC? i think its a great way to lift the general poker skill of the playing population.


so in short, i can see one negative - the potential for shonky things happening, but i can see LOTS of positives. and providing 888pl keep hiring quality staff, the negatives will be minimised, and at the same time, good staff enhances the positives.

i have not had a single bad experience with a single TD, ever, in the history of NPL/888pl. maybe thats why i am 100% for TC's participating, and why some people might have some reservations.

[Des]

Good post Peter, just wanna comment on 2 things.

TCs playing in tournaments will quite radically change the outcome of leader boards.

Radically? I doubt it would. If TC's are allowed to play, they are treated just like another player, they don't get extra chips, a 3rd hole card or anything like that.

The 2nd time I played there was no bounty and the TC took out some players who might have reached the final table had the TC not been playing. So the outcome of the game had been changed by the addition of another variable.

This kinda ties in with my first point. Another variable? It is just another player. They don't get extra chips than anyone else, they get dealt the same cards are anyone else. Anyone else could have been sitting in that seat and busted you, just because it is an offduty TC mean's nothing.

What if Joe Hachem sat down for a game, would you complain because he busted you with 7-3 and and he is a poker professional and thus has an unfair advantage? No way. He's just playing the same game of cards.

That's the beauty of poker, differing skill levels, but anyone can win on a given night. Look at Darvin Moon. The guy is only a few hands away from the WSOP Main Event yet he's just a regular amateur player like most of us.

[pmk]

There are HEAPS of very good reasons for the TCs playing, but unfortunately there is one big con (being the integrity of the league). And that is rather hard to ignore.

If you add an extra variable to an equation then it can change the results significantly. Adding the TCs into the mix with no benefit to the players may cause resentment along the lines of “I would have made it to the final table if that TC wasn’t playing. Why are they playing anyway? They just wreck it for everyone”. At the very least they will change the outcomes of games thus the leader board without actually being part of it.

What if Joe Hachem sat down for a game, would you complain because he busted you with 7-3 and and he is a poker professional and thus has an unfair advantage? No way. He's just playing the same game of cards.

I’m not complaining myself. I am taking a step back and looking at the big picture. Joe can bust me anytime with anything. Just make sure I’ve got my camera handy. As for the TCs busting me, BRING IT ON BABY! As I said before, I’d love it if the TCs were allowed to play but you can’t just plonk them into a tournament structure for no reason, i.e. they can’t win points or prizes, as they then become an obstacle for players trying to achieve points etc.

If there was a bounty on their heads then that would be a different story, but who would front the bounty? Some venues are border line now. When Winstons Bar had the bounty game and Garth had a target painted on his forehead I was there with bells on. The attraction of playing with someone of his calibre brought players to the venue and I liked playing there afterwards (good venue, good group of people and a half decent TC). It was a shame the venue stopped.

this is a moot point pete. at my regular venue, i also know how most of the regulars play, and i too believe that i have a very real and distinct advantage over them. should i be banned because of this?

Yes. Yes you should or at least start with half a stack, one hand tied behind your back and a patch over one eye

Has anyone asked the TCs what they want? Do they want to play with us peons? Do they want to be forced (2 games per month) to play?

[bennymacca]

what do you think about my reasons for TC's possibly enhancing the integrity of the game pete?

[Garth Kay]

No TC is being forced to play.

Management will be forced to play 2 games per month.

And yes TC's have discussed this in the staff forum for a few weeks now before I bought it to the attention of the general playing public.

[Scotty]

ok, lets put a different spin on it.

i can see the TC participation in regular freeroll events actually enhancing the overall integrity of the games, rather than being detrimental to it, and here is why.

1. i think it will reduce the likelihood of cheating by the players. if there is a TC sitting on the same table, or a nearby table, i think players will be less likely to collude, steal chips, or whatever else they might want to do, because it creates an extra staff presence in the room. the instances of player cheating would far outweigh the instances of staff cheating, and then if you multiply by all the players in the room, i can see a big reduction in this due to the extra staff presence.

2. TC's off duty raise the standard of the game, not in terms of skill necessarily, but in terms of how the game is run, etiquette etc.
things like rabbit hunting, going through the muck, counting down pots when one player is all in etc, can all be overseen by the TC. most importantly, general players will learn how to do this, and why it is done in a certain way. even things like shuffling and dealing can be taught by the TC in a casual environment, lifting the general skill of the playing population in this area.

3. in terms of general skill, TC's are obviously better on average. instead of thinking of this as a negative, it can definitely be a positive. what better way for new players to learn than to play with a TC? i think its a great way to lift the general poker skill of the playing population.


so in short, i can see one negative - the potential for shonky things happening, but i can see LOTS of positives. and providing 888pl keep hiring quality staff, the negatives will be minimised, and at the same time, good staff enhances the positives.

i have not had a single bad experience with a single TD, ever, in the history of NPL/888pl. maybe thats why i am 100% for TC's participating, and why some people might have some reservations.

Very good post. Certainly follows my line of thinking.

I still don't see why TCs participating occasionally, instantly equates to diminished integrity of the league.

[Des]

If you add an extra variable to an equation then it can change the results significantly. Adding the TCs into the mix with no benefit to the players may cause resentment along the lines of “I would have made it to the final table if that TC wasn’t playing. Why are they playing anyway? They just wreck it for everyone”. At the very least they will change the outcomes of games thus the leader board without actually being part of it.

As I said before, I’d love it if the TCs were allowed to play but you can’t just plonk them into a tournament structure for no reason, i.e. they can’t win points or prizes, as they then become an obstacle for players trying to achieve points etc.

But they will be part of their own leaderboard, thus encouraging them to play decent poker.

Also another point, not everyone playing 888pl are playing for the points/prizes.

So as easy it is to say “I would have made it to the final table if that TC wasn’t playing. Why are they playing anyway? They just wreck it for everyone”, it could quite easily be someone else not playing for points/prizes who busts you.

[bennymacca]

So as easy it is to say “I would have made it to the final table if that TC wasn’t playing. Why are they playing anyway? They just wreck it for everyone”, it could quite easily be someone else not playing for points/prizes who busts you.

last night i played at the louisiana tavern, literally for an hour. i had to catch up with dave, and i wasnt' going to play, but he ended up convincing me, so i played just to have a bit of a laugh

so i shoved blind a few times, and nearly won a 5 way allin with 83 against QQ, 99, 66, AK. (turned the double gutter, missed the river ). in the course of an hour, i ran my 1k up to 5.5k and then back down to zero.


i think my actions ruined the point scoring opportunities of the other players much more than any TC could.

do you agree?


for what its worth, that is the first time i have ever done the whole "i have to go home" thing. quite fun actually.