Is it mucked?

[madali]

To my understanding if they are table face up then they are not mucked and despite the fact that they have announced that they lost, cards speak and they can be declared the winner. When they are face down it is tricky and is usually up to the discretion of the TC. It is usually based in 1/ was it a legitimate mistake 2/ are the cards easily distinguishable and 3/ is it in the best interest of the game that the hand is retrieved. A players prior behavior would usually be a factor as well like is this a one off or is it something they have done more than once.
I always use a card guard for this reason as my cards are easily distinguishable if another player mucks there cards and they hit mine and I often teach new players to do the same. If they don't have something to place on them then I get them to put a couple of chips on top.

[benschke]

Ok another question.

What about when a player pushes their cards towards the muck but never takes their hands off the cards? And then pulls them back?

I would assume because they never let go of the cards that they are still live but is there an official ruling on this too? If the cards touch the muck while they are still holding them are they mucked??

[Garth Kay]

Ok another question.

What about when a player pushes their cards towards the muck but never takes their hands off the cards? And then pulls them back?

I would assume because they never let go of the cards that they are still live but is there an official ruling on this too? If the cards touch the muck while they are still holding them are they mucked??

Depends on the intent behind the action and how far forward they were pushed.

In my mind, the majority of the time this occurs is an angle shoot as a player is looking to feed off a player's reaction if they believe there opponent is going to fold.


And to Matt's question, Gayle answered it the best. Cards speak at all times and if cards land face up on the table anywhere they are declared as tabled.

[Paul]

I have Ruled Mucked cards unmucked before, i had one guy hide his cards and when they other guy who actually asked if his bet was good enough and threw his cards on top, then a guy hiding his cards tabled his and laughed and said "Thanx Mate" so i ruled them able to be bought back cause of a broken rule in the first place inticing a muck and his cards were easily recognisable, I wasnt popular but there are certain rules that can allow it to be unmucked.

I also rule if someone was pushing their cards in and it hit the muck whether they let go or not a muck, its only usually a ploy to get the other guy to show his card or get a read of him, so i play it as a reaction seeking play and i will usually force muck them hands if it goes as far as pushing them to the muck the second it touched the muck they are folded !!! but then if this player is doing it all night and stupid little things like that i would penalise when he drags them out for going through the muck.

If you go hard on them idiot players trying to bend every rule they soon get the picture and then become decent players, especially whent they got forced the hard way to play properly !!

[krunchie]

If you go hard on them idiot players trying to bend every rule they soon get the picture and then become decent players, especially whent they got forced the hard way to play properly !!

+1

[Todd Rivers]

Here is an interesting scenario that happenned at a Challenge game two Sundays ago.

Blinds 3000/6000 with 500 ante with 8 players remaining at final table.

UTG has only 500 left in chips and can only post the ante. There is a side pot for him of 4000.

EVERYONE folds to the BB.

The BB has a brain fart and folds also! - Throws his cards into the muck!

What would you do? There is 9000 in blinds left that CANNOT be won by the UTG player (he obv gets the 4000 side pot), and no-one else has cards!

Spoiler:

I awarded the 9000 to the BB as he was the last "live" hand to fold

[bennymacca]

thats pretty funny todd. the player that was all in for the ante would be cheering!

[Whitmee35]

Here is an interesting scenario that happenned at a Challenge game two Sundays ago.

Blinds 3000/6000 with 500 ante with 8 players remaining at final table.

UTG has only 500 left in chips and can only post the ante. There is a side pot for him of 4000.

EVERYONE folds to the BB.

The BB has a brain fart and folds also! - Throws his cards into the muck!

What would you do? There is 9000 in blinds left that CANNOT be won by the UTG player (he obv gets the 4000 side pot), and no-one else has cards!

Spoiler:

I awarded the 9000 to the BB as he was the last "live" hand to fold

I get that situation at Crown all the time during early stages of tournies, when I only have a few runners and they just are not thinking, it amuses me

[Larx36]

Thanks guys,
FYI the villain in question had done the same thing 10mins prior and was allowed to retrieve cards both times...and won both hands to rub it in.

If you want a legitimate ruling you need to provide more details of what occurred and the action surrounding this.

By the way, the be all and end all for this ruling is the TC on the night, and an official ruling can be sought from me but will not overturn any results.

Thanks Garth,
It's all good thank you. Was just after some information to be equipped with for next time.
Cheers