Rules ??

[Scotty]

The subsequent action also changes, based on the above, but i think i've already exceeded what is currently employed.

[Bob B]

FABULOUS POST BRETT. I have copied and pasted it and I will print it out for myself for future reference as this comes up quite often.

This actually happened to me a few weeks ago at Para Hills.

Player 1 $50sb player 2 $100bb player 3 was first to act but player 4 (me) raised the pot to $500 out of position.

Unfortunately there was a wannabe TD at our table and said I had to leave my bet on the table and the others can check it down but my $500 goes into the centre, LOL as a gift? Not bloody likely M8.

Obviously I disagreed LOL, and to save any further arguments I called Dakota over to sort this ATD soon to be a TD on the finer art of debating.

I'm pretty sure that Dakota said the bet stood as is. And player 3 has the option to check or raise as he had the pre-knowledge that player 4 (me) was going to raise to $500.

If player 3 checks then the $500 bet by player 4 (me) stood as is. All the other players folded around to the blinds who could either fold, lose their blinds or match my $500 bet or go over the top. Player 3 then had the same options to fold or call.

It didn't seem fair at the time as it was purely accidental as I thought the player to my right had tapped the table as a check.

If it wasn't for the so called "I know everything guy" player 3 would not have said anything as she was going to call anyway.

Had she, player 3 not called it meant that because I bet out of turn the action allowed me to steal the blinds which doesn't seem too fair to me!!!!!!!

Gonna have to print it out and have a propper read but I thought I'd get this done before going to bed.

Bugga me dead it's after 2am, what was I thinking I'm up again at 6.30am.

[Scotty]

To clarify the out of position raise Bob, that particular bet obviously stands. And player 3 can't check behind your bet.

[Garth Kay]

Thanks Brett.
Brett has answered your question. From now on posters I have no issue with you mentioning TD's by name. It seems we have a few staff members who do not want to take directions or do as they are directed. TD's will probably start doing the correct thing if they are mentioned in a public forum. WITHIN REASON and only to do with rulings.
Stopping short of firing staff members there is not much more I can do to promote the new rule books and get staff to try and understand them.

[Lizard]

Thanks Brett.
Brett has answered your question. From now on posters I have no issue with you mentioning TD's by name. It seems we have a few staff members who do not want to take directions or do as they are directed. TD's will probably start doing the correct thing if they are mentioned in a public forum. WITHIN REASON and only to do with rulings.
Stopping short of firing staff members there is not much more I can do to promote the new rule books and get staff to try and understand them.

Thanks for the feed back.
So i was right again
I have no problem with your TD's some people might just misinterpert things that are said or read, after all there only human.
I will let him know myself but i dare say he would have read this and already know.
I just like to learn the full extent of the rules to use them to my advantage and improve my game, just like the quote Brett wrote on Don Bradman

Don Bradman took and passed the cricket umpire's exam while he
was captain of Australia. He had no interest in becoming a
cricket umpire, he just wanted to know all of the rules in
every situation so that he could use them to full advantage
on the field. He sensibly wanted to be in control of the
situation at all times and never be in the position where
umpires or opposition captains could put anything past him.

BTW thanks Pete for pointing where the rules.
Right under my nose typical male blindness DOH!

[Dakota]

hey bob, player 3 cannot check in the situation, he must call the $500 bet, raise or fold. He would be the first person to act as he was the next official person to act. Then normal progression of betting, play will resume.
In defense of Ross, who was than "wannabe" TD, he was actually told by a Senior TD, "that u can check it down, and any bet out of turn stays in the pot". Which is obviously, seriously wrong..

[bennymacca]

very wierd as to why someone would make that ruling - it doesnt make a lot of sense.

i am going to paraphrase the above posts for my own clarification

1. An out-of turn bet is binding, unless the action is changed (a raise), at which point the out-of turn player is once again live, and can raise/call/fold.

2. A PARTIAL raise made by someone going all in does not re-open betting - call or fold are the only two options

am i right here?
if i am wrong, i would like to know - i like being able to play the game correctly.

[Brett Kay]

benny the cunt

Say you have 4 people after the flop. One with 400 another 600 the other two 2 billion.

First Situation:
Player one with 2 billion checks, Player two with 2 billion checks. Player with 400 goes all in, player with 600 goes all in. Because player one and two have checked they can complete the raise to restart the betting.

Second Situation:
Player one with 600 puts in 300, player two with 400 goes all in, player 3 with 2bil and player 4 with 2 bil both call. Player one can only call the 400 bet. Betting has not been reopened.

Third Situation:
Player one with 600 puts in 300, player two with 400 goes all in. Player 3 with 2bil raises to 600 (completed the raise), other player calls, If player one had more chips can then reraise all in, but in this case can only call.

1st situation notes:
Because all players have had a chance to act, betting was started midway through the players, Hence the previous players who checked can have a chance to reopen the betting i.e reopening the betting by completing the raise or greater.

2nd situation notes:
Player one was the initial better, 2 goes all in, 3 and 4 do not reopen the betting by completing the raise. Therefore player one can only call

3rd Situation notes:
Player one was the initial better, 2 goes all in, 3 or 4 can reopen the betting by completing the raise (and greater). Therefore player one can then raising as well.

[bennymacca]

ok, so if someone makes a partial raise, other players have the option to complete the raise or just call, and if the raise is completed, then betting is reopened?

Example: blinds are 200/400

Player 1 has 600 and goes all in.
Player 2 has the option to call 600 or complete the raise of 800.

if Player 2 calls 600, Player 3 can only call 600 or complete the raise of 800, but no harder?

if Player 2 completes the raise of 800, then betting is reopened to Player 3, who can then do anything.

is this right? these little nuances of betting are confusing, and are the only part of the game that i am still not 100% sure of.

[Brett Kay]

Ok Bennymacca.
You didn't state post flop or preflop. So will put in the answers in red

Post Flop

ok, so if someone makes a partial raise, other players have the option to complete the raise or just call, and if the raise is completed, then betting is reopened?

Example: blinds are 200/400

Player 1 has 600 and goes all in.
Player 2 has the option to call 600 or complete the raise of 800.
- In this instance player 1 has bet 600 not reraised.
if Player 2 calls 600, Player 3 can only call 600 or complete the raise of 800, but no harder?
-Player 3 still has the call raise or fold options. He can call the 600, raise to 1200 or greater (bet was 600) or fold

if Player 2 completes the raise of 800, then betting is reopened to Player 3, who can then do anything.

Pre Flop

ok, so if someone makes a partial raise, other players have the option to complete the raise or just call, and if the raise is completed, then betting is reopened?

Example: blinds are 200/400

Player 1 has 600 and goes all in. Under The Gun
Player 2 has the option to call 600 or complete the raise of 800.
- Can call 600 or complete the raise to 800 or greater.
if Player 2 calls 600, Player 3 can only call 600 or complete the raise of 800, but no harder?
-Player 3 still has the call raise or fold options. He can call the 600, raise to 800 or greater or fold
if he reraises it reopens the betting for player 2.

if Player 2 completes the raise of 800, then betting is reopened to Player 3, who can then do anything.

Its a lot easier to explain this in person. With cards and chips and table positions.